[Closed] A nice look at Hope crank manufacture

They are really pushing their cranks! I can't remember any of Hopes products ever getting this much advertising?!

0:38s. Threaded cockring? Rather you than me.

^ yeah, saw that too 😆

No wonder they are pushing the product so hard after investing what must be £350K on a brand new Matsuura to make them.

In the same way that the pedals baffled me in terms of manuafacturing time, he said the cranks take 25 mins each arm (not inc axles, axle clamp, bolts etc) Thats almost an hour to machine the arms alone.

Most shops would want over £80.00ph out of that machine for time alone (At that rate it would take over 540 days just to break even on the machines turnover - so nowhere near profit)

Hope must be getting much less than that to be able to retail the arms and axle at £240, with what i am assuming £120ish trade price on them. The axle looked like it took considerable time to make too with the cutting of the spline and thats not even beginning to think about tools for the forging, the material itself, design, testing etc etc....

Great looking chainset though and a good advertising product for Hope, i say that as it offers absolutely no benefit what so ever over the established products out there other than aesthetics.

I am sure owners of 7K baby blue bikes with pink stickers and enve rims will get the horn for them though.

30 secs in I had to stop. Couldn't get over the French/Barnoldswick mongrel accent 😆

Well all the advertising is working on on me. I was thinking about some XTR cranks for my Solaris but now really want some Hopes. I just cant get my head around that they don't seem to come with a BB.

Hopes trade prices are very high so very little mark for retailer plus min order of £500 I think last time I ordered from them plus carrage. Hence why I don't stock hope just get it in to order as its a lot for me to have too much of it sat in stock

Not very northern is he (unless he's from north France)

Nice video! There's a lot of money and effort in these and they do look ace, it's just a lot of cash for a crank.

1 micron?! - that's impressive, because it looks just like a normal CMM...

crankrider - Member

No wonder they are pushing the product so hard after investing what must be £350K on a brand new Matsuura to make them.

In the same way that the pedals baffled me in terms of manuafacturing time, he said the cranks take 25 mins each arm (not inc axles, axle clamp, bolts etc) Thats almost an hour to machine the arms alone.

Most shops would want over £80.00ph out of that machine for time alone (At that rate it would take over 540 days just to break even on the machines turnover - so nowhere near profit)

I took it to be 25 mins/side of that thing he was calling 'the coffin' - the fixture that held the crank arms in place for machining. And didn't he say they can get 16 crank arms on each side of it?
So, 25mins for 16 crank arms.....is just over 1.5 mins/crank arm. The speed it was cutting at, I don't know what it would be doing for 25 mins if it was per crank. There'd be nothing left 😀

Hopes trade prices are very high so very little mark for retailer plus min order of £500 I think last time I ordered from them plus carrage. Hence why I don't stock hope just get it in to order as its a lot for me to have too much of it sat in stock

I don't stock Hope, but I order quite a bit from them - they're not fussed if I order a dozen hubs and brakes, or just one brake rotor, it always gets here next day. They're a brilliant company to work with - and I can phone up and order a custom disc rotor with different drilling and diameter and they'll happily run one off for me. Try getting that kind of service from Shimano 😉

I just cant get my head around that they don't seem to come with a BB.

Why? Shimano cranksets don't

Shimano cranksets don't

[i]I just cant get my head around that they don't seem to come with a BB.[/i]
Why? Shimano cranksets don't

Edit: Beaten to it. All Shimano cranks come with a BB.

Fair enough - never bought them that way since I'm usually only replacing one or the other. In fact I've never seen the option before.

All Shimano cranks come with a BB.

My last Shimano cranks didn't (Ultegra)

I took it to be 25 mins/side of that thing he was calling 'the coffin' - the fixture that held the crank arms in place for machining. And didn't he say they can get 16 crank arms on each side of it?
So, 25mins for 16 crank arms.....is just over 1.5 mins/crank arm. The speed it was cutting at, I don't know what it would be doing for 25 mins if it was per crank. There'd be nothing lef

I understood him to mean 25 mins per "Coffin face" which showed four cranks (4x8=16) so a run of 16 crank arms is 1hr 40mins. Divide that by 8 (there's two cranks per crankset) so that single op comes out at 12.5 minutes, Per crankset...

But then there's a whole load of other Operations, they don't really go into who's doing the initial forgings for them but there will have been a chunk of tooling investment there, machine time on the axle and whichever spider/ring you choose, anodising, etc, etc...

Then there's the obvious, rather dull question, are they significantly lighter/Stiffer/stronger than an XT-HT2 crankset?
These are a [i]want[/i] not a [i]need[/i] purchase really...

Road cranks don't come with a BB because of italian/english threads (or at least that was the reason).

I'm actually surprised that mtb cranks still would given threaded and the various push fit BB standards now whereas originally it was just 68 or 73.

I guess Hope see it as a modular system where you buy a BB to suit your frame as a separate item to the crank arms. I haven't looked but I assume they do most variations.

I'd also like to know how they compare to XTR in weight terms. Not that I'm going to change as there's no need but they do look nice (in a Hope kind of way)

So basically, Hope were wasting their time with all this then... 🙄

Great to see a UK firm & its people who are passionate about their product & investing in kit to make it happen. They'll never beat Shimano/Sram, but that's not really why folk buy Hope.

Having programmed & set plenty of multi-pallet CNC's over the years, I'd say the 25 mins per tombstone was for 16 finished crank arms. I think some of those rapid feed rates have been slowed for the camera to pick them up, likewise turning the coolant off. 🙂

VitalMTB said: Weight: 641g (arms, axle and 34t spiderless ring)
Compared with ~600g for xt cranks with no ring on them, so pretty much similar weights to shimano?

So basically, Hope were wasting their time with all this then...

Great to see a UK firm & its people who are passionate about their product & investing in kit to make it happen. They'll never beat Shimano/Sram, but that's not really why folk buy Hope.

Having programmed & set plenty of multi-pallet CNC's over the years, I'd say the 25 mins per tombstone was for 16 finished crank arms. I think some of those rapid feed rates have been slowed for the camera to pick them up, likewise turning the coolant off.

You guys may be right about it being one side of the tombestone taking 25 mins, it wont be 16 finished arms in 25 mins though, as above thats 1.5min an arm which is going the other way and too fast to be realistic. Still a LOT faster than 25min per arm!

I am not saying they are doing anything 'wrong' as such - just that other than for aesthetics / supporting UK manufacturing (which i do like to do) there are no real benefits at all from buying this product.

It wont be lighter or stiffer than the top offerings from shimano / sram and it is expensive, over £350 for a chainset is quite an investment when a SRAM X0, Spiderless ring from Works / RF and a bottom bracket is around £200 if you shop around.

I like hope stuff, i like Hope, these things will sell by the bucket load i am sure, just not for me this one....

A chainring takes 2.5min to machine when optimised.

It wont be lighter or stiffer than the top offerings from shimano / sram

Why not? Without access to the data from the test rigs, there's no way you can say that.

A chainring takes 2.5min to machine when optimised.

A chainring doesnt have 3d machining, thread cutting, spline cutting / broaching or the tolerances a chainset requires though, a much less 'complicated' part to make, plus i bet a ring could be made with about 4 tools.

It wont be lighter or stiffer than the top offerings from shimano / sram

Why not? Without access to the data from the test rigs, there's no way you can say that.

You seriously think it will? You think it will have a better stiffness/weight ratio than the hollow forged offerings from a billion dollar company - even if it did, have you ever felt your XT chainset lacked in that area? - Your frame / wheels would move first.

Hope are a fashionable brand name now, and thats what this product is, an extension of the brand, nothing any better than what is already out there, in terms of price or weight, no top cranks like XT etc lack in durability and the bottom bracket isnt even included so we cant talk about that.

In the modern world of fashion led £7K+ trail bikes, this product is perfect.

crankrider - Member

In the modern world of fashion led £7K+ trail bikes, this product is perfect.

I think in the world of 7K bikes, this is heavier than cheaper carbon offerings, and will struggle to sell as a result.

crankrider - Member

In the modern world of fashion led £7K+ trail bikes, this product is perfect.

I think in the world of 7K bikes, this is heavier than cheaper carbon offerings, and will struggle to sell as a result.

I doubt it, most of these bikes get pootled around trail centres on the weekend, they wont care about a few g if the bike has the latest chainset / pink stickers on the frame & wheels.

I like them. I'm Looking forward to fondly feeling them and enjoying how they look. Frankly if you're worried about a few grams weight take a long hard look at yourself first.
I for one will be happy to eat less to both afford them and be able to offset the 50g or so they add. They'll be on my 2k bike, hopefully the wife won't notice she didn't get a set.

You think it will have a better stiffness/weight ratio than the hollow forged offerings from a billion dollar company

I don't know - but I don't belive that products from larger companies are always better than those from smaller companies. If that was true, everyone woul be riding a Giant.

You guys may be right about it being one side of the tombestone taking 25 mins, it wont be 16 finished arms in 25 mins though, as above thats 1.5min an arm which is going the other way and too fast to be realistic.

Hmmm...
They are just finish machining a forging. If they were hacking them from a billet, yes that's optimistic, but with 50 bar through-tool coolant, solid carbide tools etc; some of those tools will run at 800mm/min+ feed rates once optimised. I think 25min per tombstone is about right.
I miss the shop floor. 😕

The flex they were putting through them on the testing looked quite significant, seeing as they said it simulated riding downhill.

The mean "over-weight IT personnel downhill mincing" aka STWers aka target market

A chainring doesnt have 3d machining, thread cutting, spline cutting / broaching or the tolerances a chainset requires though, a much less 'complicated' part to make, plus i bet a ring could be made with about 4 tools.

Yeh. Which is why I said it takes 2.5min. ie: bit longer than the 1.5min per crank arm which was being discussed.

Excellent vid, cheers!

Think it's fair to assume they're forged out-of-house? It's kind of passed over on the video and that's proper money...

Does it only come in black?

Hmmm...
They are just finish machining a forging. If they were hacking them from a billet, yes that's optimistic, but with 50 bar through-tool coolant, solid carbide tools etc; some of those tools will run at 800mm/min+ feed rates once optimised. I think 25min per tombstone is about right.
I miss the shop floor.

No disrespect but i imagine the shop floor doesnt miss you if you think 800mm/min is fast, did you miss a zero out? - We do lots of 3d surfacing alu at work, it can be slower than hogging metal as there are so many passes to achieve the cosmetic finish hope go for.

Anyway, i suppose we are off topic now. I do like Hope and dont want to detract from what they are doing here in the UK which is great.

I do like the look of this crankset and it looks like a lot of other people like them too = win for hope no matter what an bod like me thinks!

Yeh. Which is why I said it takes 2.5min. ie: bit longer than the 1.5min per crank arm which was being discussed.

Sorry Brant, thought you were saying the opposite and using the ring as an example - Shouldnt forget you know more than most would about this kind of stuff 🙂

My work can only dream of 800mm/min....... and the work piece is approx 20m long 🙂

I think initially black only, colours to follow a bit later according to one article I've read.

Didn't the production bloke say the machine they have invested in will be used for other things not just the cranks?

yup, it's just another mill so got to keep it fully utilised or you're just pissing money up the wall

Think it's fair to assume they're forged out-of-house? It's kind of passed over on the video and that's proper money...

I thought they were forged in Europe at the same place that does their hub shells.

Would have been cool to see them make 2 piece hollow arms like SiSL's, but maybe C'dale have that locked down with patents.

what axle diameter are they?

if it's bigger than 24mm then what BB are they planning to use?

175mm black available now all other sizes/colours spring iirc.

30mm axle to be used with their bb.

These are a want not a need purchase really...

Bingo, just like all Hope bits. It's nice to have parts you want rather then parts that are simply functional.

Oh, and I want a pair as they look ace.

Do any manufacturers bore out for the pedal and bb axle to do testing before going through all the other processes?

I don't know about forging but is it possible you can have a bad batch of them being delivered without knowing?

I don't know about forging but is it possible you can have a bad batch of them being delivered without knowing?

Of course it is!

The materials supplier could provide the incorrect alloy. Or the forging company could get Hope's material mixed up with that for another client. If there is heat treating, that could be done incorrectly like if a thermostat was malfunctioning or something similar.

I'm sure that Hope works with reputable suppliers, but mistakes do happen.
As long as people are in the process, screwups are possible!

They look pretty. I want a red pair.

🙂

I've got a 7k Santa Cruz, won't be putting these on my bike though

Why the hate for 7k bikes? Bitter much?

Why the hate for 7k bikes? Bitter much?

Cranks look nice, currently I'd probably go carbon next though.

not going on my baby blue either.

i like Hope, I like the way they try to get things right, but this crank is just not appealing at all.

it's almost like a school boy project. using limited resource and know how to produce a crank which is nowhere near where it needs to be to compete with the giants of sram and shimano.

they want to knock those rapids up to 100% though, Mams look so unimpressive running that slow and chuck a few more tools in the carousel.

30mm axle to be used with their bb.

they make a 30mm BB?

is this a threaded jobbie?

I want to like them but they don't have the CNC'd sexiness I was hoping for, and I'm not that keen on the graphics. Might be different in the flesh though.

Yes, they make a 30mm threaded BB. As indeed do Race Face I think.

[i] cannondaleking - Member

Hopes trade prices are very high so very little mark for retailer plus min order of £500 I think last time I ordered from them plus carrage. Hence why I don't stock hope just get it in to order as its a lot for me to have too much of it sat in stock [/i]

And this is one of my biggest issues with the Modern LBS. They hold as little stock as possible, and ime it's all low-end stuff. You visit the shop, you think you know what you want and the LBS offer to order it in for you, at a price ~60% over the web price.
(I was quoted £150 to order an item I could get for £90 online)

So, for doing nothing more than visiting my LBS and deferring the process of going online and clicking the buy button, to a shop assistant. I will be charged significantly more than if I had remained at home and ordered online, myself.
Then we get LBS owners wondering why things are the way they are. Perhaps if LBS owners had the minimals to actually hold stock, then perhaps folks would get back into the habit of going to the shop to buy stuff. I don't mind paying between 10 to 15% over the web price, if I can walk into a shop and buy the item there and then.
However, I suspect that we've entered a one-way street on this matter. You can't un-invent the web.

I think I like what Hope do. They appear to stay and Manufacture in the UK and call me whatever you want to. I do buy Hope partly for the fact that it's UK produced. I know it's terribly unfashionable to support UK business and all that. But, well, you know me...

I agree Solo, last few times I've been to the two closest lbs they didn't have even basic parts so would have had to order in. The shame is that the shop that closed because a big hitter was moving in probably would have had the parts.

I also like supporting British companies, especially those just down the road. Apparently, according to STW, I'm an idiot for not buying a direct sales generic bike/frame though.

creamegg - Member

I want to like them but they don't have the CNC'd sexiness I was hoping for,

They could have machined them from billet but it'd make for a less good product. I'm a wee bit surprised with the machining style though since they've not gone for the exaggerated (and pointless) sharpedged ZOMFG CNC look of the brakes.

And this is one of my biggest issues with the Modern LBS. They hold as little stock as possible, and ime it's all low-end stuff.

There's this vicious circle, though - shops know that enthusiasts mostly buy stuff online, so why stock high-end parts that date really quickly and probably won't sell? Shops aren't daft (well, most of them) so they stock the stuff that actually sells, which generally isn't high-end parts.

I have this conversation a lot - "Why don't you stock XXXX? You'd sell lots of them!" "Well, actually you're the first person in three years to ask for one."

cokie - Member
They are really pushing their cranks! I can't remember any of Hopes products ever getting this much advertising?!

I am struggling to see why they exist, except as a crank for teh must-have-Hope fanboi.

[i] bencooper - Member

There's this vicious circle, though - shops know that enthusiasts mostly buy stuff online.

I have this conversation a lot - "Why don't you stock XXXX? You'd sell lots of them!" "Well, actually you're the first person in three years to ask for one." [/i]

Hence my remark:
[i]However, I suspect that we've entered a one-way street on this matter. You can't un-invent the web.[/i]

As above, I'm aware that having the luxury of a local LBS means items will cost a tad more, but asking £150 for something I get retail, online, for £90? I struggle to see where the extra £60 was going...

So, these days, LBS appear to survive mostly, on the income stream flowing from their servicing department.
This then is the modern state of the UK LBS.

[i] cynic-al - Member

I am struggling to see why they exist, except as a crank for teh [s]must-have-Hope[/s] [b]like to buy competitive UK products when possible[/b] fanboi. [/i]
FTFY.
😉

I am struggling to see why they exist, except as a crank for teh must-have-Hope fanboi.

I'd assume it's because their market research said they'd sell loads so make lots of cash.

I struggle to see where the extra £60 was going...

Rent, rates, utilities, wages, etc etc 😉

chestrockwell - Member

I am struggling to see why they exist, except as a crank for teh must-have-Hope fanboi.

I'd assume it's because their market research said they'd sell loads so make lots of cash.

Of course - but how will they improve my ride? They won't.

[i] bencooper - Member

I struggle to see where the extra £60 was going...

Rent, rates, utilities, wages, etc etc[/i]

Nope!

Firstly, you appear to have missed the sarcastic triple stop I posted at the end of my sentence you've quoted.

Secondly, you missed out the profit, in your list and £60 for <5mins work? Equaling something like £720 per hour. Hhmmmm, you've obviously modeled your business on Apple corporate pricing strategy.

Best you carry on mending bikes for the mechanically inept.

Of course - but how will they improve my ride? They won't.

Well, no - but frankly most bike upgrades won't. No-one really needs more than Deore level components at best. But they're fun to have.

Of course - but how will they improve my ride? They won't.

[i] cynic-al - Member

Of course - but how will they improve my ride? They won't. [/i]

Oh yes they will! Or do you ride bikes without cranks?

[img] [/img]

😆

Secondly, you missed out the profit, in your list and £60 for <5mins work? Equaling something like £720 per hour. Hhmmmm, you've obviously modeled your business on Apple corporate pricing strategy.

Best you carry on mending bikes for the mechanically inept.

Please tell me you don't honestly think that's how overhead/costing/profit/hourly rates/etc is calculated.

As to the cranks, they're clearly of no real benefit. I'd still love some though if my XTRs die.

Solo - Member

Secondly, you missed out the profit, in your list and £60 for <5mins work? Equaling something like £720 per hour. Hhmmmm, you've obviously modeled your business on Apple corporate pricing strategy.

See those shiny machines? They cost a kabillion quid.

Best you carry on mending bikes for the mechanically inept.

Oh, I don't do repairs unless I really like you. It's much easier to make £720 per hour ordering stuff from CRC for customers 🙂

[i] It's much easier to make £720 per hour ordering stuff from CRC for customers[/i]
😆

I don't shop with CRC either.
8)

If I break my Shimano cranks I'd like some of these. I don't care if that makes me a fanboy, I like that they're making quality products here in the UK and I'm willing to pay more for them. Good video.

Funnily enough it's a similar reason to preferring to buy an alloy frame made in Taiwan to a carbon frame made in China - I feel better about the life of those making the frame. A UK made frame would be even better but the choices are rather limited...

Oh god don't them started with overly expensive filing cabinets again........ 😉

I've just watched the video. I'm very impressed with it. I wouldn't imagine that Hope are doing anymore or less than the other players, SRAM, Shimano, etc. But what struck me about the video was all the folk working there, specialists, knowledgeable about their role and the product and all done in the UK.

Well done, Team Hope Tech, UK!
🙂

chestrockwell - Member
I agree Solo, last few times I've been to the two closest lbs they didn't have even basic parts so would have had to order in.

As Ben said, for a clued up consumer who know what they want and shops around online, forget the LBS. We just can't compete. We are more like a car garage these days, until fuel prices become realistic or transport is taxed realistically the LBS will decline.

A bit of a shame really, bikes can be such a force for climate change and a slow in consumerism but instead the industry and consumers are just following the same model that might ultimately **** the planet.

really liking the look of the cranks.

Not sure the price is that high compared to Shimano top end stuff. People seem to be comparing CRC Shimano prices with Hope RRP... M980 chainsets RRP at £375..

[i] cynic-al - Member

As Ben said, for a clued up consumer who know what they want and shops around online, forget the LBS. We just can't compete. [/i]

A point I made in an earlier post was that I don't expect LBS to match the prices online. Even a tard such as myself knows LBS have a different overhead structure. My issue is the actual margin of difference in price. If LBS could get within 10-15% of online for items under £250, I'd expect I'd be happy to pay it. Then again, perhaps me and my preferences put me into a minority of cyclists who think that way.

As for the "[i]we can't compete[/i]". I'm glad Hope didn't feel like that, when facing the competition from the far East, otherwise they wouldn't be here today.
🙂

[i] grenosteve - Member

really liking the look of the cranks.[/i]

Yeap. And while they're about it..

Oi! Hope, I want a road crank. Urry up!
😆