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So a funny thing happened to this week on the way home from work. Having had a few weeks off the bike my ride home resulted in me seriously bonking about five miles from home. I ended up having to stop at a pub at the top of Box Hill to fuel up on peanuts and coke. As it was about 7.30pm, the early evening regulars were already several pints in. A conversation started up with the locals recalling a funny story of how a guy in the same position once came in and ended up staying the whole night and had to call his wife to come and get him. It was a funny story and the mood seemed relaxed.
Then in a heart beat the mood changed. Properly changed. A brief pause and then one of the locals casually launches in with ‘But of course we f—in hate cyclists round here’.
Now I am as sensitive to the situation on Box Hill as the next guy but this was early evening, dark, winter and a week day. The delivery was properly hateful; honestly it was like one of those ‘film moments’ where the mood changes instantly to hate and the person on the outside suddenly sees that they really are on the outside. I responded quickly with ‘That’s alright I f—in hate motorists’, which I thought would be taken in the obvious comic spirit intended - of course I drive a car for pete’s sake.
From there we spiralled pretty quickly; next came ‘do you think it’s ok to ride two abreast and hold us all up’ and my ‘of course, we have just as much right to the road as you do’ elicited the entirely predictable response of ‘no you don’t you don’t pay road tax’, at which point I figured we’d have some fun.
After we’d dealt with the ‘there is no such thing’ point I then went with both barrels with a ‘well I pay the so called ‘road tax’ to and I pay £450 a year - how much do you pay. Oh and for the record, I’m a higher rate tax payer. Are you a higher rate tax payer? No? Then I think you should just say thank you to me for what I pay to fund the roads because I pay a lot more than you do’.
At this point the landlord and the main protagonist’s son both stepped in as the main protagonist was getting properly hateful and aggressive (I was just calmly eating my - ahem - nuts and drinking my coke). In fairness to the landlord, he did step in on my side and told them to back off, after all, all I’d done was come in to have a drink and some nuts. I was also dressed head to foot in reflective gear so they could see I was a ‘sensible cyclist’.
The protagonist went outside with the landlord and I quietly finished up. I went outside and offered my hand to the chap and said I thought we’d got off on the wrong foot, that I was sympathetic to his issues, just not to how we presented his case and he responded with similar good grace and we genuinely parted as friends (well almost).
It was a very interesting experience. I had a genuine experience of what it must feel like to be on the receiving end of hateful prejudice, albeit in a very small and isolated way.
Bloody hell, did the resulting nervous energy make you write a lot... 😀
Your mistake was going into a local pub for local people, guessing it wasn't the smith and western.
Now I am as sensitive to the situation on Box Hill as the next guy
Is Box Hill in Syria?
#firstworldproblems perchance?
Sounds like a typical 3 pint rant to me, shrug it off. And you did say you decided to have some fun so you were clearly keen for the argument too?
TBH there is no point arguing with hate filled morons.Note to self i should heed this advice on the internet just as much as i do in the real world
IME people who start off from strongly entrenched views that have limited basis in reality dont really get won over by rational debate
You made me miss. I've never missed that board before.
Oh and for the record, I’m a higher rate tax payer. Are you a higher rate tax payer? No? Then I think you should just say thank you to me for what I pay to fund the roads because I pay a lot more than you do’
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Stay on the path.
Beware the moon.
And remember the Alamo...
geetee earlier
TBH, there's always some gobshite in the pub you can take offense at be it someone a bit racist who is just "keeping it real", anti-bike, homophobic etc. It's a bit more depressing when the pissed racist actually is a mate but there you go
Oh and for the record, I’m a higher rate tax payer. Are you a higher rate tax payer? No? Then I think you should just say thank you to me for what I pay to fund the roads because I pay a lot more than you do’.
ooft, a late contender for the "Bellend of the Week" awards right there!
Shite rant, 1/10.
No capz, no nasty wordz, no finger wagz, no stropz.
And you shook handz.
Epic
Fail.
Must tryz harderz.
Oh and for the record, I’m a higher rate tax payer. Are you a higher rate tax payer? No? Then I think you should just say thank you to me for what I pay to fund the roads because I pay a lot more than you do’.
I'm with the other guy. Pls DIAF.
ooft, a late contender for the "Bellend of the Week" awards right there!
Well if the OP was going to enter into a moronic debate with a bellend then he may as well have some fun with it.
yes that he was taking the piss and annoying a pub bore he did not say it to annoy folk
As noted its a good thing to say to get folk riled so it was perfectly pitched
If he really said it and meant it then yes he is a bell end but most of you , oh the irony, have reacted as he intended you to
I had a genuine experience of what it must feel like to be on the receiving end of hateful prejudice
🙄
If he really said it and meant it then yes he is a bell end but most of you , oh the irony, have reacted as he intended you to
However, say that in a pub full of people (not all of whom you're arguing with) and everyone is likely to think you're a nobber.
disappointed it didn't end up in fistycuffs 😥
Well if the OP was going to enter into a moronic debate with a bellend then he may as well have some fun with it.
This.
I thought it was a pretty good come back myself but it was just that, a come back. It wasn't anything more and certainly wasn't the point of this post.
The experience was bordering on surreal and I just thought I'd share with 'like minded folk'. I'm certainly not looking for a class war.
I don't think the higher rate tax thing is such a bad response, in the right context. If someone is essentially suggesting the more tax you pay the more rights you have to the road then it's basically just highlighting the absurdity of that argument isn't it?
At this point the landlord and the main protagonist’s son both stepped in....
they'd worked out that if you sold your bike it would pay for free beer until xmas, the xmas party and their new year holiday
Then I think you should just say thank you to me for what I pay to fund the roads because I pay a lot more than you do’.
Just like to say thanks. And thanks for paying for the NHS and schools and wars and stuff.
Imagine everyone in the pub stood and applauded you but if they didn't they should have. Thanks again.
Just like to say thanks. And thanks for paying for the NHS and schools and wars and stuff.Imagine everyone in the pub stood and applauded you but if they didn't they should have. Thanks again.
Lay off the OP. He didn't start the stupid "I pay more tax than you therefore I have more right to the benefits" argument. The other guy did. OP was pointing out that it's a stupid argument. He's actually on the same side as you: how much tax you pay is irrelevant, everyone should be treated equally regardless of their monetary worth.
Wind yer necks in.
how much tax you pay is irrelevant, everyone should be treated equally regardless of their monetary worth.
Yes that really was my point. I'm genuinely sorry if my point was taken otherwise and caused offence here.
I'll defend the higher rate taxpayer comment.
GT isn't boasting about it - the other guy has brought up the concept of taxation as entitlement, and GT has simply shot down such a stupid argument very effectively.
Just like to say thanks. And thanks for paying for the NHS and schools and wars and stuff.Imagine everyone in the pub stood and applauded you but if they didn't they should have. Thanks again.
I don't for one minute think that GT actually believes more tax means more entitlement - he was arguing against that very idea.
Just like to say thanks. And thanks for paying for the NHS and schools and wars and stuff.Imagine everyone in the pub stood and applauded you but if they didn't they should have. Thanks again.
Whoosh!
I don't for one minute think that GT actually believes more tax means more entitlement - he was arguing against that very idea.
Oh I do. If Kerley is a lower tax rate paying pauper, we should ban him. No place for riff raff here...
[i]"Lay off the OP. He didn't start the stupid "I pay more tax than you therefore I have more right to the benefits" argument. The other guy did"[/i]
and identified that the OP didn't know how to successfully reduce his tax contribution - easy target
Apologies geetee1972, misunderstood the point.
Good job I wasn't with you in the pub...
Yeh, but whether he was just illustrating the daftness of their point or not it does sound a bit "considerably richer than yow"I don't for one minute think that GT actually believes more tax means more entitlement - he was arguing against that very idea.
how about "so you always pull over and let lorries past?"
Of course the initial mistake was engaging in the argument in the first place.
But then I know that the relationship between a Turner and an argument is akin to that between a bull and a red rag 😉
Si you do have a point, but this was less about rising to an argument and more about responding to 'hate'.
If someone had said the same thing but swapped the word 'cyclist' for something else relating to a person's identity, I would have reacted the same way.
These days I can honestly take or leave an argument (ok well maybe not quite so easily) but I think you have to call out hate and biggotry when you see it.
how about "so you always pull over and let lorries past?"
That would have been a less confrontational come back. More logical and appealing to reason. Problem was that the 'reasoned argument' of 'there is no such thing as road tax' already fell on deaf ears.
I confess that while I do not for one second believe that more tax equals more right (more a case of more salary equals a greater share of the collective responsibility), I did quite deliberately use that line because I knew it would sting as well as illustrate the idiocy of his argument.
I was, by that point, angry and wanted to get even. That might make me weak but it does also make me human.
I wouldn't have bothered countering the road tax statement but educated a little about riding two abreast and taking prime position. Did you do that?
I wouldn't have bothered countering the road tax statement but educated a little about riding two abreast and taking prime position. Did you do that?
I truncated the actual dialogue a little. His first point of gripe was riding 'two and three abreast'. I agreed that three abreast was wrong and did explain why two abreast was better all round.
Never argue with an idiot:
1) They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
2) Like wrestling with a pig: you both get covered in shit but the pig's enjoying it.
3) Onlookers cant tell the difference.
Fairplay if you had the balls to stand up verbally to a partially drunk individual. You never can tell how things might turn out and how quickly they might turn to aggression. I'm afraid if it were me I would have remained silent, finished my nuts and left.
I don't for one minute think that GT actually believes more tax means more entitlement - he was arguing against that very idea.
What I call the Alf Garnett effect. Intended as satire/ridicule yet if pitched to the 'wrong' audience often has an unintended (even opposite) effect.
ie
Those who are unashamedly racist will simply think: 'I'm right, those darkies are trouble'
Drivers who brag about their 'road rights' will simply think: 'I have more rights'. Their brains are stuck in entitled, aggrieved bigot mode. Denser than the densest material known to humanity.
Pigs, mud, enjoy etc.
PS OP good for you sticking up for The Truth, I'd have probably been much less effective, ie it would have gone Python, ministry of silly walks etc
The very worst thing about this whole debacle has been missed so far...
Nuts? Nuts?
What were you thinking man?
Scratchings every time though I suppose you get a partial bye for being in softy shandy land 😀
They didn't sell either scratchings or crisps. They didn't even sell nuts in bags. I had to spend £2 (£2!!!!!!) on a bowl of nuts. On top of that, the bloody coke cost me £2.80!
The worst part of the whole thing is that I spent £4.80 and 45 minutes in the bloody place!
I used to own a pub the worst clients were the locals straw dogs every one.
And the 3 pint comment made me smile I always said they became A holes after the 3rd.
£2.80 for coke is cheap. Is nuts the new word for women of lose morals then?
Country pubs in soft shandy land are the worst for the Straw Dogs effect out of peak times. Lucky you didn't mention fox-hunting.
The worst part of the whole thing is that I spent £4.80 and 45 minutes in the bloody place
Just over 10p a minute for an argument is Bargain!!
Python charged £1 for five minutes and that was in the early 1970's
Python charged £1 for five minutes and that was in the early 1970's
No they didn't.
slight change of tack...but is there actually a locals vs cyclists issue around boxhill?
I live very near there, cycle a lot locally and don't notice a problem. Local businesses/cafes certainly benefit and are welcoming. Dorking generally seems rather proud of the local cycling scene. And obviously plenty of locals cycle.
I'm more surprised after that you came on STW and admitted you had a car requiring £450 tax. That's bravery!
I'm more surprised after that you came on STW and admitted you had a car requiring £450 tax.
I needed a large family estate and it was cheaper to buy a big petrol rather than a diesel. At the time we didn't know how polluting diesels really were. Now I think I can claim to be saving the planet by driving a big petrol engined car.
slight change of tack...but is there actually a locals vs cyclists issue around boxhill?
Yes there absolutely is but it is probably confined to certain areas and Box Hill in particular is nightmare on the weekend even if you're on a bike let alone in a car.
There's an ace line from a Frank Turner song that goes: 'He's not as clever as he thinks he is, he's just ambitious with his arguing' - sounds like it applies to both of you. But regardless of that, it sounds like you need to sort out your on-bike nutrition to avoid this sort of thing in future. 😉
Meh. I've had to fend off a "bloody cyclists, two abreast" complainant whilst lying on a hospital bed with a video camera four feet up my arse.
Didn't even get any nuts.
Anyway… [url= https://www.tboom.co.uk/upset-the-idiots ]only four days left to buy one of these[/url], which I think you'll find [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/t-shirts-in-aid-of-cyclists-defence-fund#post-7316041 ]the ideal weapon for scenarios such as these[/url].
Amazed at how many have taken the OP's comments on higher rate tax the wrong way! I found them quite funny & intelligent - a great riposte to a moronic & ill informed POV from the village idiot....
Mind you, this is STW & taking things the wrong way seem to be par for the course.
Now I think I can claim to be saving the planet by driving a big petrol engined car.
Er yeah not THAT big of a petrol car 🙂
My friend Sally is in hospital with 6 broken ribs, punctured lung, fractured pelvis, fractured shoulder blade.
Hit and run , Headly side of Box Hill ( corner of Headly Rd and the road to Headly Court just after the blacksmiths).
Old blue 4x4.
Was out on a road ride Wednesday mid day with group of friends.
Some of them really don't like us around there.
My friend Sally is in hospital with 6 broken ribs, punctured lung, fractured pelvis, fractured shoulder blade.
Holy shit, I hope she makes a good recovery. Thoughts to her and yourself.
It's funny (funny peculiar not funny haha) but when people ask me how I feel about the ride into work, I always say that it's mostly fine but that there are a few places I do feel vulnerable, largely because of the speed the traffic is moving at and that it's only a single carriage way. Headly Common, but in particular Church Lane, is where I always get the jitters.
BWD +1 You need to sort out your nutrition and leave local pubs to local people.
Feel for the OP getting stick on here. I've fallen into the same trap myself on here a few times, but it was blindingly obvious that in the context of the argument he wasn't meaning it in a genuine boastful way?
Never argue with idiots - they will only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Like the time I had the "car tax" conversation with a Prius owner.......
Feel for the OP getting stick on here
I certainly appreciate the moral support but this this is STW and I generally find that ultimately we are all mates on the same side here and the misunderstandings and arguments generally resolve themselves well.
Well almost always. Sometimes someone gets airbrushed.....
Just reflecting for a moment and I can remember when I first registered with the site - June 2004 (or thereabouts). Even then there were people that had been on here for eight years plus.
At some point the reality that this place is 'just a computer forum' does transcend itself and become a community.
geetee1972 - Member
Python charged £1 for five minutes and that was in the early 1970's
No they didn't
That's not an argument. That's just disagreement. 😉
Re the £450 'road tax' - surely less than the average vat that your average Sunday rider in that area pays every time he changes his bike? 🙂
slight change of tack...but is there actually a locals vs cyclists issue around boxhill?I live very near there, cycle a lot locally and don't notice a problem. Local businesses/cafes certainly benefit and are welcoming. Dorking generally seems rather proud of the local cycling scene. And obviously plenty of locals cycle.
Yep.
I can see why though.
As part of the problem, in the summer I was doing reps up and down the zig zags. Was amazed at the constant flow of cyclists going up. I don't think you realise it if you're just out for a single ride up and over.
There was a fair share of idiots. 3 abreast with another overtaking those making it hard to actually descend as a single cyclist.
Any car is basically stuck behind the slowest rider as there's no space in front to pull into after overtaking. Then there's faster cyclists overtaking the cars which are trundling along at 8mph.
And this is every Saturday and Sunday over summer making the zig zags pretty much impassable by car.
There's been quite a few instances of tacks being put on the road. I believe someone had quite a nasty off as a result of a tack induced blow out at speed.
My mum has also noticed this. She's a 'tourer' style of cyclist so has the opportunity to smile and wave to people. Everywhere else elicits a smile or wave back. Doesn't get it over Box Hill...
Personally when people come out with those stereotypical anti-cyclist comments I try not to engage - the mere fact that the complaints are the same tired old list tells you they're not things the complainant really has an issue with - they've just learnt them from other sources and therefore there's none of their own thinking behind them, and therefore no way you can have a reasoned debate whereby they'll accept their thinking is faulty - it's not their own thinking in the first place.
I find they're just trying to wind you up generally - they're probably angry people who like to make other people angry to make themselves feel better.
I had a ranter the other day when I refused to ride in a damp off-camber leaf-strewn downhill cycle lane. She was so completely out of control that I figured nothing I said along the lines of pointing out the risks of riding in that cycle lane would lead to her saying "I'm sorry, I hadn't realised". I just let her rant till she eventually ran out of steam and sulked until the lights changed...
Glad in your instance that it all ended in a friendly handshake and acceptance that he was being stupid. Tells you there was nothing to his rant really, just empty rhetoric on his part...
A mate and I were walking through Oldham after a night on the lash (big mistake I know). Five knuckleheads were staggering behind about 100 yds and started shouting out about how they were going to kick the shit out of us, we were poofs etc etc. Luckily they were so hammered that they couldn't walk fast enough as a group to catch us up (as we had unsurprisingly quickened our pace).
The daft thing was that as we managed to get into a cab to end the 'chase' I looked around and three of the yobs in question had started to kick seven bells out of the other two.
It seems some people regards a fight or an argument as a perfectly normal and desirable part of a night out.
In return, I regard people like this as tossers.
But be warned. Tossers are like the masons (only less organised). They are everywhere. Everywhere.
Any car is basically stuck behind the slowest rider as there's no space in front to pull into after overtaking. Then there's faster cyclists overtaking the cars which are trundling along at 8mph.
And this is every Saturday and Sunday over summer making the zig zags pretty much impassable by car.There's been quite a few instances of tacks being put on the road. I believe someone had quite a nasty off as a result of a tack induced blow out at speed.
So, some delicate flowers have a slightly longer journey, and retaliate by attempting to seriously injure the perpetrators of this heinous crime.
So, some delicate flowers have a slightly longer journey, and retaliate by attempting to seriously injure the perpetrators of this heinous crime.
Box Hill, if you're fast, is about 6 minutes. Average plodder does it in 10.
Instead of 2 mins in a car, you get stuck and it takes 10, that's just the zig zags. You then have to contend with them all the way up past the Smith & Western.
This is on a quick pop into Dorking which takes an additional 7 minutes along the dual carriageway and into town.
So doubling the time it would normally take.
(all times are guesstimates)
If this was the case outside your house every. single. weekend, would you not get a bit irate?
Though, having a poor opinion of people who ride bikes as a result is no excuse to either drive like a twunt or put tacks on the road.
This is on a quick pop into Dorking which takes an additional 7 minutes along the dual carriageway and into town.
So doubling the time it would normally take.
(all times are guesstimates)If this was the case outside your house every. single. weekend, would you not get a bit irate?
It's a fair point but it's one hell of a first world problem isn't it! I guess you could argue there's more pollution as a result from having to drive further and longer but if the British public were a little more enlightened then we'd see that the bigger problem is car dependency rather than a growth of people riding bikes...
but if the British public were a little more enlightened then we'd see that the bigger problem is car dependency rather than a growth of people riding bikes...
Totally.
You could probably double the cycling traffic coming up Box Hill. It's only when a car tries to go up or down the issues start.
Thing is, I think this is quite a recent development so locals aren't used to it. BH has always been reasonably popular, but since the Olympics and Ride London there has been an explosion in numbers passing through. It's like a mecca for anyone in the South East.
What is it with Box Hill? Is it actually a nice road to ride up?
but if the British public were a little more enlightened then we'd see that the bigger problem is car dependency rather than a growth of people riding bikes...
If they thought it through they'd realise that more cyclists is actually a good thing for motorists.
Box Hill, if you're fast, is about 6 minutes. Average plodder does it in 10.
Instead of 2 mins in a car, you get stuck and it takes 10, that's just the zig zags. You then have to contend with them all the way up past the Smith & Western.
This is on a quick pop into Dorking which takes an additional 7 minutes along the dual carriageway and into town.
So doubling the time it would normally take.
So it's an extra few minutes on your day.
My journey taking my daughter to school is longer than it needs to be, because the road junctions we have to cross favour cars over pedestrians and cyclists. I find it a little bit irritating, but I've never felt the desire to endanger motorists' lives as a result.
Bloke in pub has a drink and gets arsey.
Nothing unusual here, move along.
😆 we'd be Denmark; as an example I give you King Canute = takes himself to the seaside to prove he's not omnipotent to his idiot fawning councillors and can't make the waves turn back.If the British public were a little more enlightened
How does it get spun in Britain? He's the foolish king who tried to turn the waves back ❗ the yes-men spin doctors win again.
Anyway back to the OP; I must admit i avoid Boxhill area like the plague now. It's been overrun and the Surrey Hills locals are the definition of NIMBY. They could cope with a few riders (before 2012 it was my favoured after work loop) but once road cycling became the new golf 😕
There are bits of Surrey that are more like Deliverance than Debutantes - the back of Box Hill is one of them, quite a high number of mobile homes (Google Earth) tucked behind the hedges and sounds like the OP's had the pleasure of meeting them.
I had a similar experience to this but in reverse. Driving on the road between Shepperton and Chertsey on the weekend with the Mrs and kids in the car when we come up behind a road club taking up the full width of the road. I sit behind them for a good while until it's safe to overtake. Pull back in again and then have to stop at a mini roundabout shortly afterwards. Roadies catch up and surround car glaring in and shouting abuse. This left the kids a bit shaken, and consequently me angry. The overtaking was perfectly safe, but it seams that what upset them was the fact that I had ruined their peloton by taking up the road with a car. A lot of these guys have the attitude that the roads are there for them to play on and this should take priority over the flow of motorised traffic. OP was unlucky enough to encounter the backlash from this type of behaviour.
it seams that what upset them was the fact that I had ruined their peloton by taking up the road with a car. A lot of these guys have the attitude that the roads are there for them to play on and this should take priority over the flow of motorised traffic.
Not disputing your experience here but I'd be interested to know what the guys on the bikes have to say about their perspective on the matter... I've ridden with 3 clubs, two in London and one in Manchester over the last 6 years and never once heard anyone complaining about the 'peleton' being ruined - not least because club runs aren't actually pelotons and we don't consider ourselves as one either, we're just a group of riders going out for a ride, safely - tight formation really isn't that important...
We will, however, get upset by close overtakes or drivers trying to push into the group if they've got their overtake wrong and find themselves driving into oncoming traffic...
OP wasn't unlucky to encounter any kind of backlash really - prejudice and bigotry come from within... it's not 'caused' by external factors...
A lot of these guys have the attitude that the roads are there for them to play on and this should take priority over the flow of motorised traffic
Contact the club - my understanding is that the majority of respectable clubs don't & wont behave this way. They certainly won't take kindly to members behaving in the manner you describe..
Rest assured that the most club runs are far better behaved!
Contact the club - my understanding is that the majority of respectable clubs don't & wont behave this way. They certainly won't take kindly to members behaving in the manner you describe..Rest assured that the most club runs are far better behaved!
+1. We will always get an email from our club secretary if he receives a complaint.
So the highway code states that on busy or narrow roads cyclists should ride in single file. As both a cyclist and motorist this sounds fair to me. 🙂
Well handled IMO .
You need to go back with the guy with the 'tache from roadhouse ... 🙂
Box Hill, if you're fast, is about 6 minutes. Average plodder does it in 10.
And Box Hill is an iconic climb down there?
Blimey, up here in Yorkshire that'd be known as a speed bump...
It's iconic. It's not tough. It's a very very easy climb. No one disputes this. It's just a nice road.
You puff up your chest though if it makes you feel better!
The trouble with Yorkshire...
Just came across this on bbc - about unconscious bias. Seems appropriate here... and shows why it can be so hard to use rational argument or facts to persuade an anti-cycling ranter that they're talking nonsense!
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34910954 ]Unsconscious bias[/url]
Our unconscious mind rings alarm bells if someone is different from us or unfamiliar, but most ancient signals of danger are past their use by date.
ant77 - Member
Box Hill, if you're fast, is about 6 minutes. Average plodder does it in 10.
Did it in 12 on my 170 travel Nomad just for a laugh, overtaking some of the plodders 😀
Normally I go off road popping out by the S&W.
Err congratulations on being slow... You must be so proud! 😉
Yep 😀 . As I say, for a laugh, that's the point. Still, 12mins at pootle pace on a heavy full sus, backpack, 2.5 tyres, big travel and no lockout. Is okay by me, and still not the slowest. Admitted most of those I overtook were, err, unfit and weight challenged 😀
Blimey, up here in Yorkshire that'd be known as a speed bump...
And in the TDF the Tour de Yorkshire would be classified as 'rolling' at best and probably flat.