[Closed] A bike build... time trialling on a budget

Was it TiRed?

It seems a bit odd to me that brake calipers and cables are still often out there in the wind, I'd have instinctively thought they would be worth tucking them into/behind the frame and forks a bit more, or it that a regulations thing about them not being allowed to be integrated?

Having them work is more important than tucking them away.......

I know that BITD it wasn't unusual for some of the top guys (and geeks) to tuck their front calipers in behind the fork. Or modify the arms so the cable ran infront of the head tube, instead of off to one side.

All while wearing woolen jerseys and back to front caps.....

Pro mechanics have a bit of hatred towards integrated brakes - they're a real pain to fix in a workshop, let alone the back of a van in the middle of the night. As such, it's kinda boiled through to the mainstream. Cav even decided last year to run the previous MY Venge as the Specialized aero brakes weren't as well functijoning and hard for the mechanic to work on.

umop3pisdn or however you spell it appears to be the man to talk to on here about fixed tt'ing.

Hai!

The only worry is that the ideal gear for a decent time is 53/11. Fixed. ***k my old boots...

You'll find finding an 11t sprocket quite difficult, so go big on the chainring.

[img] ?ig_cache_key=MTA5MTQ5NTAwMTE2NTEzNDUxNw%3D%3D.2[/img]

My bike's just gone to have an Infocrank 53/39, praxis bb and new 28/11 & chain fitted.

I'd budgeted for a replacement bb30 😯

Oh blimey, you've just reminded me of my first TT build...

Haha. That's amazing. I love the effort that's gone into it. Total respect for that.

MrB - drop me a mail re the Planet X if you wouldn't mind! There's an itch I need to scratch...!

Njee20, it's a dark path 😉 Email sent.

Wasn't me. I'm "resting" after being taken out in a race on Saturday. Chopped at 54 km/hr immediately before a bend.

My trike isn't THAT aero and nowhere near my TT bike for CDA - plus 50% more resistance (excluding the stupid grin)

Defeated by routing through the bars. Park Tools internal routing kit ordered!

Turbo bike (that pug up there ^^^) sorted with the poles from the PX now, with a swap of seatpost and saddle and a quick fiddle with the adjustable stem it's easily switchable between road and time trial positions. Don't need to bother swapping bikes around now, which is cool 🙂

Wasn't entirely straightforward as I had to source a 26.4 seatpost that I could run back to front. A quick browse of SJS Cycles and I found a suitable seatpin and separate saddle clamp that does the job nicely. Is there any "how can I get this to fit onto there" bike problem that can't be sorted with a part from SJS?

umop3pisdn - That, as they say is a whopper.

Do you only TT on fixed? I'm quite TT fixed curious (ahem) but have MANY questions.

And Njee - thank you. That saves me sending him an email...!

Haha flange, it's not sold yet! If it's not sold by the time I've stripped it down I'll pop it on the classifieds.

Bugger...

Budget...

My entire TT bike cost the same as your stem!!!

Nice build though 🙂

Chap in my first ever club did everything on fixed. Had a good bike for the summer and time trials, and a mudguarded up bike for winter, commuting and touring. Everything from youth hostelling in scotland (after riding there first) to the RTTC national 12hr all on fixed.........

I think he was a bit odd.

I presume it's a bit like SSing, you just get used to it and the shortcomings aren't as bad as they first look. Most people can pedal from 40-120rpm, which is 300%, which is only a smidgen behind the range of a 11-25 - 38/52.

Is there a better place to be looking for track bikes than ebay? Most on there seem to be Planet-X's which is fine, but they're £500-£700, the same as a new one or not far off!

umop3pisdn - That, as they say is a whopper.

Do you only TT on fixed? I'm quite TT fixed curious (ahem) but have MANY questions.

Yup! Everything from 10s to 100s (3:49 last year), and also tackling a 12hr this year.

Happy to answer any questions, either on here or my email is in my profile.

I presume it's a bit like SSing, you just get used to it and the shortcomings aren't as bad as they first look. Most people can pedal from 40-120rpm, which is 300%, which is only a smidgen behind the range of a 11-25 - 38/52.

Yeah pretty much this - it's no way near as bad as people think. The people who slate it the most tend to have never ridden fixed. That said I think you need to devote a fair amount of time to it to get the most from it, and it's not suited for really rolling courses (but is of course perfect for hillclimbing).

LFGSS is a good place to look.

You don't have to spend loads, a friend built this mega cheap:

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Can I do a TT on my commuter bike, this?

[img] [/img]

UCI would I think say no as there isn't a front triangle. CTT may allow it though.

Ahhh... I see yes.. 😉

It was the clear precursor of this:

[img] [/img]

😆

New BB collect+'ed...

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In keeping with the budget theme.... at least it's not Ceramic Speed 😉

How do you size up TT bikes? Assuming I ride a 56cm road bike (6ft, average proportions) and can touch my toes (and get my palms flat on the floor on a good day) so pretty flexible. Seems like track and TT bikes are 74+ seat angles, but still have 56cm top tubes, so do I look for a 56cm bike (with a subsequently long reach), or a 54cm (which would put the bars in the same place relative to the BB). I'm guessing the former as you're never out of the saddle for very long?

The obvious answer is "ask your LBS" or "get a bike fit", but my realistic budget for a 2nd hand frame/bike is probably less than the cost of a bike fit!

umop3pisdn,
Out of interest, is that a track frame or a TT frame with a 130mm 'track' hub?

Track frame, Cervelo T3. You can use a TT frame with a 130mm fixed hub, but the track ends on TT bikes tend to be quite short so gear choice can be difficult.

Sizing is a funny one, I tend to go for a similar top tube length to my road bike cos I find a stretched out position works well for me, but plenty of people advise going for a frame at least a size smaller.

A more forward saddle position isn't necessarily the right way forward also, that's an influence from the Tri world. My saddle is in pretty much the same position across road and TT bikes.

How do you size up TT bikes?

Was a bit of trail and error here. Had a vague idea of stack and reach from putting clip on's on the road bike. Went for a smaller frame that I knew could be made to fit initially even if it looked a bit silly, and had plenty of scope for position change. You can get some very adjustable clip/pole/pad combinations, combined with a normal stem, that then give you a lot of scope to change pad stack and reach (the Zipp Vuka Alumina poles will go under or over the base bar, and you can get up to 50mm of extra stack from risers, and they've got about 100mm of fore/aft adjustment on the poles, and the pad placement is independent of the clips. Throw in stem changes and you have a huge amount of adjustment.)

For a road frame I'd probably start looking at a 56" but it really depends on the numbers as want a long reach and low stack. I went for a medium with the Stealth and a 54" for the Cervelo.

TINAS, as you're so close, you're welcome to have a play on mine if you're curious.

A more forward saddle position isn't necessarily the right way forward also, that's an influence from the Tri world. My saddle is in pretty much the same position across road and TT bikes.

One consequence of TT'ing is that my road position is moving closer to that on the TT bike. Saddle position is pretty close now, hip angle is pretty close on the drops too. A fair bit faster now.

Cheers for the offer, I'd probably just find my epic beer belly gets in the way though!

I'm guessing I'm probably closer to a 56/large, which makes sense, my torso still has to fit between the saddle and bars regardless of the seat angle.

Reading some of the earlier posts, can I just say you really dont NEED to spend a lot.
My tips:
Old style wheels are super cheap 2nd hand. Get an old 808 and a 19mm tyre (still possibly fastest you can get)
Rear use a cover, tape it on with electrical tape, it will be super slippery!
A cheap (and 2nd hand) aero bar is often the best option for a beginner as they are often the most adjustable which will gain you more speed than anything else.
spend a few quid on a tt fit, then you can buy 2nd hand frames with confidence. Choose something with proven pedigree (p2 or similar)

Kit wise: Bell Javelin will be most peoples best bet and are around £50 if you shop around
Velotoze are cheap
Skinsuit- This is where I would spend money tbh. Keep an eye out for a bodypaint bioracer or nopinz suit

Despite what some people think you can make A LOT of the gains with getting an aero position without proper testing. Have a look at photos of yourself in races or even on the turbo (at the end of a session when tired). Test changes by riding club TTs. Usually enough of the same faces turn up to see moderate improvements in drag.

Im no athlete, pretty average on a road bike but I paid a bit of attention to my kit and position. 19.19 on p415, 19.26 on r10/17, 19.56 and course record on U7b. 49.20 on R25/7 - not the ski slope. 280.5 miles to win the Welsh 12 hr a couple of years ago.

Velotoze are cheap

But tear easily

m no athlete, pretty average on a road bike but I paid a bit of attention to my kit and position.

Those results would suggest otherwise. 🙂

The aero thing is huge though, you just need to plug the numbers into a drag/power/speed calculator to see how much a small reduction in drag is worth. There's a topic over on the time trialling forum about what power you needed to break 20 minutes on a 10 and it's a considerable range, even for same course and same day. Some very slippy riders out there.

Balls, that's not going to fit either...

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Time for another re-think. The Park Tools routing kit is saving my sanity.

Would be so much easier if Pro had built in a nice little access cover on the underside of the base bar.

Andy Wilkinson's bike although not cheap does go to show you do not have to follow the standard route to get a good aero position.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/andy-wilkinsons-dolan-time-trial-bike-29431

Andy Wilkinson's bike although not cheap does go to show you do not have to follow the standard route to get a good aero position.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/andy-wilkinsons-dolan-time-trial-bike-29431

I love that he commutes on that too!

Dragged mine out of the attic last night and had a fiddle with the gears.

They work. As long as i don't move the handlebars....... I'm either going to need to use a tandem inner and 2 metres of outer to get a smooth run for the rear mech. Or go Di2. :/

Or get some of the segmented aluminium outer for the bar/frame interface. In fact, looking at it. It'd probably need an entire set due to the amount of cabling round there.

Doubles my budget. Bugger.

The segmented stuff is good. I went for nokon and it transformed the rear shifting on my PX from unusable to almost tolerable. Got some spare now 🙂

Got the bars routed in the end. Managed to get a junction box and all the loose cabling in each of the bull horns... but then remembered I needed to run a brake cable through there as well. All back out and try again 😕

Thanks to some free time babysitting for some mates tonight I got the bars all cabled up. Just a single Di2 cable and both brake cables out the exit holes to the stem. Tidy.

A junction box in each bullhorn and lots of thinking about where the loose cable is going. And remembering the brake cables too!

Next step is to plug it all together next and hope it all works.

Apologies this is taking so long. Must be finished by next weekend though as it's first test of the season and my old bike is in bits.

It lives!

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What a massive faff that was. Spent about two whole evenings just trying out various routing options. The internal routing kit was a help. As was a bit of wire taped to the end of a straw. Had to dremel the hole under the BB, the exit hole near the front mech, and the exit hole at the bottom of the down tube. Then it was a lot of fishing about to thread the cables through. There's an annoying bulkhead just above the BB with a tiny hole in it. A massive PITA in getting into the seat tube from the BB area.

Incredibly it all seems to work 🙂

Anyway, almost done now, pretty much all Di2 internally routed. Just a hole on the top tube to drill behind the stem.

Not sure if you already know this trick, or if it would work on every frame. But put a hoover upto the hole you want the cable to come out of, take a bit of cotton thread and feed it into the other end and let the hoover do the work.

Heard it on a bike forum and used it on the boat a few times for getting rope to where it needs to be.

I did have a can of compressed air and some thread that I had planned to use. Didn't need it in the end.

Main problem was the internal bulkheads and the holes being just a little too small for the di2 connectors. Just needed to find the right combination of cables and junctions.

know nothing about TT, but if you are super worried about aero, wouldn't a 1 by system be better? the box on that front mech looks bulky.

Would be, and it is tempting. If I had two bikes for racing and training I'd set the main race one up as 1x. But I don't. Maybe later in the season I might try it.

Front mech looks bulkier in that photo than it actually is. Smaller than the old 10 speed Di2 on the road bike I think.

Top tube drilled, steerer cut, bars on. It's starting to look like a proper bike!

Had to swap the 5 port A junction for a 3 port, and will still have to take a dremel to the tabs on the back in order to get the seatpost in.

Brake outers were a PITA as they have a very tight bend through the hole into the side and out the bottom of the stem, bit of a struggle getting the inner through there. May swap over to some Jagwire Link cable but that would likely mean taking the bars apart again 😕 Shall see how sticky they are in use. It's very tempting to do the Andy Potts / TriRig mod and chop a corner off the back of the base bar for the Di2 cable and rear brake, as below...

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Looks pretty tidy here...

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Not sure I can bring myself to take a cutting disc to 800 quids worth of bars though 😐

know nothing about TT, but if you are super worried about aero, wouldn't a 1 by system be better?

Not sure I can bring myself to take a cutting disc to 800 quids worth of bars though

Even you're at it now: "the bars on this budget build were way to expensive to risk damaging" 😉

It's a lovely build, dare I say it... A second hand Cervelo seems a waste! Black would be a faster too.

It wasn't unusual not that long ago to run a half step double and a close ratio cassette. So you get a good spread of TT sensible gears. Think my last one was 46/54 and 12-21 ish.

That's mostly what I run now. Does give a nice spread. Am I old school already?

A second hand Cervelo seems a waste! Black would be a faster too.

Well it's spending the budget where I think it'll make the most difference*, and that's the front end. I'd like to upgrade the forks too, got eBay on the case. There are bits of white, black and red, the three fastest colours 🙂

* di2 is the obvious exception to that rule, I just wanted di2.

Damn right! Di2 has to be done.

Your logic makes sense - frame makes about the least difference in all the literature I've read, at least within the category of "TT bikes".

The Enve TT bars are nice, was playing with a set in Sigma on Sunday.

Am I old school already?

I was listening to a time trial podcast with Hutch and Xav, I think the equipment list went (in order of most important:

Tribars
Skinsuit
Helmet
Front wheel
Rear wheel
frame

But all of those were trumped by position! I have just realised i have owned up to listening to a TT podcast, but it is interesting, and the guys in my club have some super slippy positions sorted. Mine is more like a brick....towing a parachute......dragging a rhino!

not really, most of the aero benefit for a low profile is in being able to get a low/narrow position AND be able to hold it with minimal discomfort. Once you get much past the front 25-33% of the bike and those legs/cranks spinning round, the air is so turbulent that the actual aero gains for the bike are pretty much experimental error sized.

Cervelo state that the front derailleur [b]hanger[/b] causes as much drag as the entire downtube of the new P3 - single ring is worth doing.

Cervelo state that the front derailleur hanger causes as much drag as the entire downtube of the new P3 - single ring is worth doing.

Is pretty amazing that. Still probably a tiny increment compared to the anchor like drag of my size 12 feet right next to it!

It's coming along...

[img] [/img]

(Edit... still need to fix that cupboard door!)

Bars all done. Wiring done. Crankset was a bit of a bugger as the new Rotor ceramic BB was super tight (really don't like bashing the power meter with a mallet!) I ended up cracking an insert so had to dig out a Shimano one from the spares box.

Nice clean front end (unlike the floor, that's a different thread!)...

[img] [/img]

Not too sure about the orientation of the bar end shifters, seems about right with the way I hold the bars, I'll see how I get on.

Here's the hole I had to drill on the top tube, might have to make it a bit bigger to properly fit the grommet.

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And here's under the BB. Had to enlarge the hole coming out the down tube and the hole that the front mech cable would normally go up. Shall tape the cables down.

[img] [/img]

Still got to sort out the brakes. Got some nice [url= http://www.tririg.com/store.php?c=omega ]TriRig Omega X[/url] brakes in the post (I'll also change the butchered outer for some Jagwire Link.) Until they arrive it'll have the Ultegra brakes but I need a longer pivot nut for the front. Still not decided whether to leave it at 10 speed, I think my wheels are ok for 11 speed so I may need to pick up a new cassette and chain. Need to put some grip tape on the bars too.

First club 10 of the season tomorrow, I'm not sure it's going to be ready in time 😕 If it is then shake down ride will likely be race warm up. What could possibly go wrong 🙂

That looks ace. I'm a big fan of the aesthetics of Cervelos. I may end up with an S3 one day.

Looking good! from an aesthetics point of view, knowing nothing of the sport.

Cervelo state that the front derailleur hanger causes as much drag as the entire downtube of the new P3 - single ring is worth doing.

i can imagine that, from my limited understanding of aerodyanmics and turbulence. What I do know is that increasing turbulence in the boundary layer increases the resistance felt by flow, having a block like that will generate a lot of turbulence which, for reasons of blockage, may also be presnt up- flow and hence cascade onto the other side of the seat tube . I also think the FD is in relitively clean air for at least half a peddle stroke (assuming going straight ahead).

Thanks gray.

Ferrals, I just about followed that! It's a wonder why they don't build some sort of aero shroud for the FD into the down tube. I'm sure they could do it in such a way as to make it "structural" and not just a fairing.

Off to my LBS now to see if they have a long brake pivot bolt.

Because that would be a fairing which is generally against regs, and the only way to get around those is to be Pinarello.

Looking ready...

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... but still got saddle to pop on (obviously!) And still got to fit the cassette and chain and get the Di2 all set up. And the cupboard door to fix. So close but that's probably it for tonight as the turbo calls.

Edit... just popped it on the Park Tools scales. Not too bothered about the weight but for those curious it's 17lbs 14oz without chain and saddle. Think it'll be a shade lighter than the PX but not that much in it really.

No interest in TT really but have enjoyed this thread.

Skinwall front and not rear though? And different brand wheels? OCD nightmare

I won't pretend it doesn't bug me a little.

I got a really good deal on the Corima disc a while back to replace the PowerTap / Aerojacket wheel I started with which weighed a tonne and felt like it too. The Zipp 808 was a late season purchase last year to replace a cheap Planet X 50 mm carbon tub wheel I had been using previously (pair for sale if anyone is interested!) I should really do the decent thing and at least fit a skinwall on the back. If money was no object I'd have a Lightweight disc on the back 🙂

Yeah... no idea what a disc wheel costs but I would imagine mere OCD isn't going to justify a new one

I won't pretend it doesn't bug me a little.

remove the logos from both? Or are they under a clear coat?

+1 for no interest in TT specifically but an interesting thread once we'd settled on the bike build and not the budget.

V nice MrB.

Thanks for your comments on the stealth upthread - I picked a nice medium one up last week and the fit seems right. Position is going to take a lot of getting used to! Took it out on a bit of a windy day and felt like bambi on ice. Need to stick it on the turbo and get some sessions in.

remove the logos from both? Or are they under a clear coat?

Zipp is under the clear coat I think, I'd have gone for the black but again an eBay deal! I could de-sticker the disc but it doesn't bother me that much.

Nice work Garry. Be good to hear how you get on. Seem to remember you're not short on power from the Trainer Road thread. You might well find it hideous at first on the turbo, I could hardly sustain any effort when I started trying to turbo in position on the TT bike. Only really getting that sorted now.

Finally fit the saddle, charged the Di2, cleaned and lubed a new chain, and indexed the gears. Ready to race!

Had some issues with slipping bars and saddle which messed up my race a bit, should have used fibre grip paste, but other than that I love it. Di2 is superb on a TT bike. Pretty bloody quick too 🙂

Sounds like it went well considering the amount of testing (pun intended)! So how did you do?

Went ok. Didn't really get to warm up, had to go back to my car to sort out the bars and saddle, missed my start time, had to hang about to start last, got really bloody cold (this is all while wearing a skinsuit in 4C temp), then couldn't get the legs spinning or the HR up, my saddle was a bit too high, and I almost abandoned halfway. Kept going and thought it was a bit meh when I crossed the finish line. So quite surprised to finish second ([url= http://www.newburyrc.co.uk/prod/php/getresult.php?aid=4007&routine=getresult ]results[/url]) in a decent field of rides, only some 25 seconds down on the winner who was a 19 minute man last season. So quite a bit of encouragement to take from that 🙂

Bodes well.

I think so. Compared to a ride on the same course last April I'm some 30 seconds faster for a bit less power, so position and bike changes are going the right way. There should be a lot more watts too by the time we get to the faster flatter courses.

New bike was brilliant to ride too. Just ordered one of the ANT+ things to add to the Di2, mostly so I can see battery level from the Garmin as the junction box is hidden in the frame. Might be useful to be able to do see gear selection too, wondering if this is saved in the fit file and can be used for analysis?

Nice one mrblobby!

Thanks ferrals.

Really pleased with the Di2 too. Last year on the PX the shifting was so poor I really needed to put a bit of thought into a gear change and was quite hesitant about it. Change of hand position, would often shift two gears by mistake, and by the time I'd got around to shifting my cadence would have dropped too much or the terrain would have changed and I'd be in the wrong gear again. Was quite a distraction. With Di2 it's just a tiny movement of the thumb and it's done in a fraction of a second. Going from mechanical to Di2 on the road bike is nice. On the time trial bike it's bloody brilliant.

That's ace, well done! Nice to put in some money / effort and end up really feeling a difference. Storming season coming up then!

Awesome! Well done 🙂

Should have gone 1x.

Would have been 24.9 seconds behind.

😉

Nice result.

Should have gone 1x.
Would have been 24.9 seconds behind.

If I'm near the end of the season and knocking on the door of a 19 I may well do!

Well done mrblobby, have enjoyed reading this thread.
Whereabouts in the country are you based? One of my team mates is a sub-19min man who took a year off last year. However, he's got his mojo back and has put a right shift in over Winter in preparation for the coming season. He rides for HD Revolutions (HDR) based in Huddersfield. Name of Mark Thaxter, if your paths should cross at all.

Thanks. I'm down south in Newbury. I don't plan on chasing fast courses up north so doubt our paths would cross.

No worries, was a bit of a long shot. Good luck this year - keep us updated on your results, it's great following someone's progress like the 'Credible 4th Cat' road race thread last year.

Well I do believe Kryton is planning on doing some testing this season so I'm sure there'll be a thread on here along the same lines as the 4th cat one soon enough 🙂

^ I was hoping for an MTB XC one first!

What was your Age standard time? And I do think Di2 suits TT bikes more than any other. Shifting is the last think to think about when you are suffering. By contrast, I smiled every time I clicked that Dura Ace 9000 right lever yesterday. I also absolutely love the semi-compact 52/36. I think I used the inner ring twice in the whole ride, and that was to really slow up for some mates.

Might do a few more TTs myself this year, West London Combine and Westerly 10-and-a-bits, and I was thinking of a 100 at some point.

What was your Age standard time?

Umm I've no idea 😳 Was a 22:21, not a fast course or day. Quick bit of googling and looks like the standard at 42 is 26:09, so I guess that'd be 3:48?

I can see the appeal of a 100. Maybe next year.

^ I was hoping for an MTB XC one first!

I think he has already achieved credibility in that particular arena of competition 🙂

100s are the best.