[Closed] 650b Spicy - conclusively faster says Nico

I read that on twitter and chuckled, obviously means a lot if you an pro enduro rider, of little consequence when you're hurtling down the surrey alps 😉 Nice bikes though.

Lapierre make really good looking bikes

Just says to me that he,s a consistent rider over a set course. 1sec. Is nothing though except useful hype to sell bikes to the "must have,s"

Loving the black stanchions, you seen the new carbon disc guard too.

The 650b juggernaut has set off for 2014 bikes.

We should play a game of which of the big manufacturers will be left at the table offering 26" bikes for anything other than DH (or other niche aspects like DJ).

The first of many announcements. Of course it's largely bollards, but it's still happening.

Faster or not, it will sell because of the wheels & it looks good.

So that'll be 0.7% quicker with 29" wheels. Finally, we have closure on this debate!

Could be the difference between getting a KOM or not though?

If you're seriously into racing people from the internet then I reckon it's worth the upgrade.

It's a shame the EI system can't have integrated 3G/4G so you can have live KOM updates 🙁

Could be the difference between getting a KOM or not though?

If you're seriously into racing people from the internet then I reckon it's worth the upgrade.

Where's that credit card gone?

butterbean - Member
It's a shame the EI system can't have integrated 3G/4G so you can have live KOM updates

😀

That would be real innovation. I think most would probably use it's 3G capabilities for arguing on MTB forums though, rather than actually riding the thing.

That would be real innovation. I think most would probably use it's 3G capabilities for arguing on MTB forums though, rather than actually riding the thing.

That's preposterous!

0.35% faster......wow

So if I go out for a 2 hr ride, I will get home 25 seconds faster.

I rode a 29'er, 650b and my 26'er back to back and I was equally as slow and unfit on all three.

I will get home 25 seconds faster

[pillock mode]
a 2hr ride is a 2hr ride.
you will go further rather than get back quicker
[/pillock mode]

Factor that the Italian Enduro championship was won by Alex Lupato by only 1.3 seconds, and that 1 second is suddenly a very significant gap.

Even at Enduro 1 at FOD the other weekend, less than 4 minutes seperated the top 75 riders, so incremental speed gains are really significant at the top of any Enduro race.

Factor that the Italian Enduro championship was won by Alex Lupato by only 1.3 seconds, and that 1 second is suddenly a very significant gap.

Can't argue with that, but it doesn't seem so significant when it might be the difference between 39th and 40th place.

what i said, but this bike is aimed at us, most pro riders already have a ride.

andyrm - Member

Factor that the Italian Enduro championship was won by Alex Lupato by only 1.3 seconds, and that 1 second is suddenly a very significant gap.

But they'll all be on 650b sometime soon, so, if it really was the wheels doing there 'magic' (and him not having an ever so slightly better run) the better wheels make absolutely no difference.

Therefore 1 second to us mortals makes **** all difference!

Edit: bike looks fantastic though, already been said but Lappy make great looking bikes.

But they'll all be on 650b sometime soon, so, if it really was the wheels doing there 'magic' (and him not having an ever so slightly better run) the better wheels make absolutely no difference.

Therefore 1 second to us mortals makes **** all difference!

But for those not lucky enough to have a sponsored ride, but who do compete, and like to gain every incremental increase possible, that's got to be a good thing right?

no. they're not of a good enough standard to ride consistently enough to realise the benefit.

brakes - Member

no. they're not of a good enough standard to ride consistently enough to realise the benefit.

This, they wouldn't be winning anyway!

Well 🙂

Even though this may cost me reputation of a normal person, to really prove this 1 second you'd need to do the following:

- Measure a hell of a lot timings with the same rider, tyres, weather, and other factors on the same track, with 26 inch wheels.
- Measure the same but with 650b wheels.

Do a couple of statistical tests and then try to make any conclusions. Based on my experience proving 0.35% increase in speed may be very, very, veeeeery difficult 🙂 If possible at all 🙂

BTW, while on this topic, why one can be sure that it's the bigger wheels and not the totally new (from what I can see) carbon frame? 🙂

Ahhh, analytics... 🙂 🙂

On my last ride I used Strava via my usual Garmin and also the iPhone app. I'm thrilled to announce that on most segments the iPhone 'improved' my times much more than 650b wheels improved Nico's...

Well put my name down for one! This was always going to be my response, 26 or 650b...

Proves nothing. He could do the same run on the same bike and vary by more than a second.

Lets hope they didn't spend all their time being fixated in the new wheels and hence forget to design out all the existing flaws in the 2013 bikes.........

(like the silly cable routing that causes them to rub clean through the carbon frame, even when clipped exactly in place by the factory fixings)

Proves nothing. He could do the same run on the same bike and vary by more than a second.

I imagine it will be the average of a number of runs on 26 compared to an average of a number of runs on 650b rather than 1 run on each...

Does that mean he gets slower as the tyres wear?

I imagine it will be the average of a number of runs on 26 compared to an average of a number of runs on 650b rather than 1 run on each...

This, plus you'd need to demonstrate that timing ranges within 26 inch mode runs and 650b inch mode runs are _less_ than this 1 second. Otherwise it proves nothing.

For example:

If in 26 inch mode it's 151.3 - 151.7 seconds (most the runs are within this range) and for 650b inch mode most of the runs measure 150.1 - 150.9 seconds then there _might_ be a case of new bike being faster (and you don't know if it's wheels or frame or something else).

If the timings range like 145-155 and 146-156 (and I believe they do) then even despite the fact that the averages are different by 1 sec, this difference cannot be deemed statistically significant - read: timing can be soooo different that 1 second is really nothing.

And something tells me that the latter is the case. Gut feeling maybe 🙂

mojo5pro - Member
Proves nothing. He could do the same run on the same bike and vary by more than a second.

Judging by this thread, it proves some people appear to actually care about a 1 second difference (even if it was just a joke), and that they're prepared to pay for it!

awesome science and i think you are right

It is not a significant and i would imagine their is considerable overlap

Perhaps even an outlier that skews the results die to say one really bad run or line choice

Also he would learn about the course and get tired ...how did they control for this

And of course how as on two different bkes so hwo did the control for than not being the factor [ not just the wheel sixe it may have been geometry

[guessing]

when nico says: '1second'

he means: 'chuff me sideways, it's almost like cheating'

or perhaps: 'the difference is significant'

[/guessing]

I was conclusively faster riding 27" wheels back in (struggles to remember but about 30 years ago). Clearly this had everything to do with wheel diameter and nothing to do with the fact that I was 30 years younger.. Oh FFS, If I had Nico's ability on a bike I wouldn't give a rats ass what wheel size I was riding, he clearly needs to get out more. 😉

Lapierre make really good looking bikes

Some would say cracking 😆

So if I had 650B wheels and Nico had 26" wheels I'd beat him by a second over a 2:50 sec run? That's how I read it anyway and it sounds bloody awesome. I'll be buying loads of them and sticking them on all my bikes tomorrow. Eat my dust, Stravanauts... 🙂

The 2014 Lapierre Spicy has been revealed and Nico Vouilloz has shared his findings on the relative merits of 26in vs 650b wheels.

Apparently the new bike is one second faster over a 2min 50sec run. Which I work out as around 0.35%.

Link to source please.

And maybe one day we'll see a press release that says "this new bike is 1 second slower" or "this bike's not quite as good" as the previous version. I believe they have a new bike to "sell" - and it looks good.

mojo5pro - Member

Proves nothing. He could do the same run on the same bike and vary by more than a second.

Nico's basically a bike-riding robot, his development testing is legendary. There was a wee interview a while back where he mentioned he'd got 2 axles, machined one of them down to make it less stiff, then done 2 days of shuttle runs to test them. 2 days! I trust it, personally, it is as good as a comparison as there will ever be.

But... This isn't the only thing he thinks/knows makes him faster. He's a flex obsessive, like above, machining down factory parts to make them less stiff. He's absolutely right IMO, but the point is that Lapierre have never taken his results on flex and sold a "15% less stiff" bike. They cherrypick what sells from his ideas and ignore what doesn't. A little well engineered flex works really well on a bike, but stiffness is easy to sell.

So what we have here isn't "speed sells", or a research led bike development programme, it's "We want to sell a 650b bike. What do we have that we can sell it with". Fact following form essentially. It's like a Singletrack thread, decide what you think [i]then[/i] google for evidence 😉

It's not unlike Fabien Barel with Mondraker... When Fabien says that fugly stems are great, you hear about it because Mondraker want to sell bikes with fugly stems. When Fabien says everyone runs their suspension too soft, and that we should be running less travel, far stiffer, and only using our suspension to provide grip... Mondraker sell softly damped bikes like everyone else, because soft suspension feels nice on test rides and in shops.

some one should tell dan atherton about this second because he chooses to race on a 26" wheeled prototype rather than the new 650b force.

For those who can't afford a new bike with 650b wheels there is always http://www.digitalepo.com/

If you're seriously into racing people from the internet then I reckon [s]it's worth the upgrade[/s] you are a bit sad if buying a bike to beat people you don't know seems a sensible and important thing to do.

Think I've fixed that for you...

b45her - Member

some one should tell dan atherton about this second because he chooses to race on a 26" wheeled prototype rather than the new 650b force.

Eh, the proto that Dirt covered this month, which is the one he raced in Italy, is 650b. But it's also got a fair number of other differences from the Force (most noticably, the head angle isn't from 2007)

So a man who is sponsored by a company declares it's new product is better than the last and the 650 is faster (cause thats what we want to sell Nico)

Well thats a massive shock who would have thought that it would be by such a massive margin (which as pointed out is well within the massive range of error)

b45her

some one should tell dan atherton about this second because he chooses to race on a 26" wheeled prototype rather than the new 650b force.

He raced a 650b bike. His 16 year old team mate rode a 26" wheel and beat him.

This whole thread...

An exercise in pointless bollocks...

The only useful contribution was this:

I rode a 29'er, 650b and my 26'er back to back and I was equally as slow and unfit on all three.

That sums up the vital differences in the 3 - **** all.

I think on the consumer side there is a desire for some sort of better mousetrap/magic bullet – a wheel size between 26? and 29? that will combine all the positive attributes of both into one bike that will do everything. That desire is a bit naive, but people go down that road all the time.

so just for clarity, every angle was the same? weight, tyres, tyre pressures, rotational mass, suspension components, weather, etc? Nothing was different apart from wheel diameter?

I'm still thinking that what we really need is a wheel size in between 26" and 650B which combines the positive attributes of both. Something you can fit in your current 26" frame and forks but with all the advantages of a larger wheel size. Fortunately such a wheel size which is almost exactly half way between the two is already available and is even in relatively widespread use (I have a couple of pairs of wheels that size in my garage already).

I give you 650C - I understand various companies are already scrapping their 26" and 650B inventory and tooling up massively for 650C ready for launch in 2014. Remember you heard it here first.

Dan Atherton, the spear point of GT's Enduro team, swore off 650B wheels at first, but after helping to dial in the geometry and ride of the new 150-millimeter-travel Force, he changed his mind. Atherton says, however, that he will continue to develop the 26-inch wheel prototype enduro GT he uses on the racing circuit.

The words of GT bicycles themselves, looks like the claim that he races a 650b in dirt were more marketing guff.

source http://www.pinkbike.com/news/GT-2014-Four-models-of-the-new-Fury-DH-and-Two-Trailbikes-650B-S.html

He rode a 650 at the first round of the EWS, also rode a modified carbon Forcewith 650b wheels at the UKGE.

He raced a 650b bike. His 16 year old team mate rode a 26" wheel and beat him.

He also used flat pedals & dual ply tyres. The kid must be an animal.

All this proves is that the marketing men at the bottom of the hill had a 1 second plus delay in hitting the stopwatch when timing the 26" bike's run.
Bit like the scientific races they have on Top Gear.

I rode a 29'er, 650b and my 26'er back to back and I was equally as slow and unfit on all three.

For 99% folk on here that sums it up.
I like the Ferrentino quote, very honest for someone in his position.
The Lapierre press release made me laugh - if 1sec in nearly 3mins is all that they can claim, then they are clutching at straws i.e. next to no difference.
Nowt against 26, 27.5 or 29, just love the way that folk look for a justification. Just get out and ride...

 

b45her - Member

The words of GT bicycles themselves, looks like the claim that he races a 650b in dirt were more marketing guff.

Eh right. You're just choosing to believe one line of marketing over another, because you like one of them more. Meanwhile, the pics of the bike he actually rode are of a 650b. But hey, that's just marketing guff right!

Presumably a 650b is a bit easier to ride up fire-roads etc than a 26, what with "big wheels rolling faster". That's not timed in an enduro format event, but if the rider's arriving at the top fresher or with more energy, and there is no downside to riding the 650b down, why not go with it?

Where's the downside?

Believe it or not I wasn't trying to pour scorn on 650b bikes (though I'm not rushing out to buy one either).

I just think it's a refereshingly honest marketing move - and if there's anyone I'd trust with figures like that it's Nico. He's well known to be quite precise.

I guess they don't HAVE to push it too hard though, if its the only AM bike they sell then we're not going to have much choice if we wanty a new Lapierre.

mattjg - Member

Presumably a 650b is a bit easier to ride up fire-roads etc than a 26, what with "big wheels rolling faster".

Perhaps. Or perhaps the (small) extra weight counteracts the (small) wheel size difference. Or maybe it's all too small a difference to care about.

Or maybe it's all too small a difference to care about.

Could well be. I'm surprised people get so steamed up about it myself.

FWIW I can see how 650b makes a lot of sense for this kind of bike, for a typical rider (rather than a pro). On the other hand I've never ridden one so that opinion's not actually worth very much ...

I will get home 25 seconds faster
[pillock mode]
a 2hr ride is a 2hr ride.
you will go further rather than get back quicker
[/pillock mode]

Then you will have gone past your house, you will have to turn round and go back and it will actually take longer. Now where are your gains.

mattjg - Member

Could well be. I'm surprised people get so steamed up about it myself.

TBF that's [i]exactly[/i] why people get steamed up about it 🙂

[Cynical mode switched on]

Anyone else looking forward to those new 26" wheels being marketed in about 3-5 years time?

Press release along the lines of 'lighter, stronger and more agile' or something.

[Cynical mode switched off]

I'm off to ride bikes!

Other links suggest the Spicy might have dropped to only 150mm rear travel due to the larger wheels? I think i'd rather have 26" and the full 160mm please ;-(

Sounds sensible. If you are going to move from 26" to 650b wheels I'd rather a drop in travel than increased chainstay length.

All it shows is that if you want a new complete bike, 650 is worth considering because there's a small increase in performance

And if you have a load of perfectly good 26" gear, then you're not missing much by continuing with it.

All it shows is that if you want a new complete bike, 650 is worth considering because there's [s]a small increase in performance[/s] no measurable difference in performance that anyone would stand up to some proper analysis.

The numbers quoted are not significant, not conclusive they are in the noise.

There is however one way to improve your speed and results. Get out and ride more.

I think honourablegeorge is bang on..

I really don't understand all the p**sing and moaning about this 650b thing. There's acres of discussion over the suspension performance of this fork or that fork. A new fork comes out that's un-quantifiably better than the last and everyone's happy - but a new wheel size? oh no. it's "marketing bollocks".

Disc brakes were overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
suspension was overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
10spd was overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
etc etc

All pretty handy things now. And people, in general, want stuff they don't really need. Companies, in general, want to sell stuff.

If this wasn't the way, we'd all be riding around on the MTB equivalant of this:

[img] [/img]

Now, ridgid singlespeeders aside, no one wants that.

All it shows is that if you want a new complete bike, 650 is [s]worth considering[/s] what you will increasingly be forced to buy because the industry has collectively decided that 26" is dead, even though there's [s]a small[/s] no real increase in performance.

10spd was overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
etc etc

I think that is the issue - how many people do you know who got rid of all their 9 speed drive train just to get 10 speed?
I dont know one who did as it offered next to nothing just like tapered top tube or rear skewer. It is such a marginal gain it wont persuade you to upgrade just for that though yo may want it on a new bike.

So they forced new bikes on us so we have to upgrade ..1 second for a world champion standard rider is no reason to force a new standard on us all as it is at best a negligible gain [ if you ignore the poor control in the "study"

as for claiming if we dont embrace progress we will be back on 1930 technology it is just a non sequitor

Some advancement is real some is just for money]
Getting rid of 26 ers for 1 second is overkill

All it shows is that if you want a new complete bike, 650 is worth considering what you will increasingly be forced to buy because the industry has decided en mass that 26" is dead, even though there's a small no real increase in performance.

Yep - just like they force you to buy bikes with disc brakes. what arse holes.

You can buy non disc brakes/wheels but I think we can safely assume we can show a performance advantage for them over alternatives without using a pro rider to do it [ assuming i trust the measure and i dont for the reasons mentioned above]

it is not the same thing at all

Can you persuade me I need a 15 bolt through over QR or over 20 mm bolt through

Will i really notice my taper head tube like i will notice discs brakes v rim in the wet for example

it is marginal and IMHO and IME unnoticeable by most riders unlike suspension or brakes.

Disc brakes were overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
suspension was overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need

Your argument might work better if you picked things where there really is no noticeable difference in performance. Or things which were actually driven by the marketing men. Or are you suggesting that in 10 or 15 years time we'll be looking back and saying that 650B really is a huge improvement over 26" and I don't know why we were so cynical at the time 🙄

Unless you are racing why do we need to go any faster. It often really hurts when I fall off now if I go quicker it's just going to hurt more. On that basis I have just ordered a 26" hardtail frame which I will likely sell as antique next year.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

26" Bike armageddon - stockpile rims, forks and tyres now!

I headed over to retrobike for a rest from wheel size debates and found someone had posted a 650b pace hardtail. No escape!

My bikes will be right at home in retrobike soon at this rate...

What would you like them to do? Sit on these marginal improvements because they don't think people will really notice? Some sort of co-op with a panel of judges deciding if the general consumer will benefit from this enhancement or that. But then some people can notice the difference between 15mm and 20mm - do those people get to buy it - perhaps they need to pass a test? I'd really like to know what the other option is!

Fact is that they aren't holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy the new stuff. If people don't want them, they won't buy them.

sprocker - Member

Unless you are racing why do we need to go any faster. It often really hurts when I fall off now if I go quicker it's just going to hurt more. On that basis I have just ordered a 26" hardtail frame which I will likely sell as antique next year.

for me, i'm not using my wagon-wheels to go faster per-se, but the little bit of extra grip often means the difference between riding through a section, and getting off to walk after a slip-stall.

i'm crap a riding bikes, but even i can find/exceed the point where a tyre lets go - techy climbs are an obvious example, it doesn't take much more grip to make a noticeable difference.

you might as well ask: 'unless you are racing, why do you need to fart about with tyre pressures?'

Your argument might work better if you picked things where there really is no noticeable difference in performance.

OK - perhaps a bit extreme.

Oversized stem / bars - how's that?

QR vs bolt thru rear ?

Syntace 142 rear vs 135 bold tru?

[img] [/img]

ahwiles

for me, i'm not using my wagon-wheels to go faster per-se, but the little bit of extra grip often means the difference between riding through a section, and getting off to walk after a slip-stall

You say this, but how do you know the "extra grip" is down to the wheel size? Unless you go back, fit 26" wheels and ride the section EXACTLY the same, then you just don't know.

Everytime I've seen someone clear a section that previous people have stopped on, it's because they are a better rider.....

Everytime I've seen someone clear a section that previous people have stopped on, it's because they are a better rider.....

But maybe someone who walked it on bike A might ride it on bike B. It's a personal experience, what other people can do isn't really relevant.

What happens in another few years when a second or two is gleened from another "new thing" ? That could be say a 3 second advantage over winning or losing, one things for sure if the riders train as they do throughout the winter for the start of the race season and are putting in their all I for one would want to see them pushing the boundaries even if it was a second !

Competing at the highest level is hard graft, not just in biking but in anything........ Look how much the motoring industry has improved though F1 & 24hour racing, stratified fuel to optimise economy so less fuel carried = less weight = less fuel used...... This trickled into the mainstream motoring manufacturers in various guises but no one moaned half as much about tht as folks are about 1/2 an " on a bike wheel

It's obviously a SIZE Matters thing !

Maybe it matters and maybe it doesent but one things for sure !
You can't stop progression at the level that some of these manufacturers pour into advertising !

It's got to be a good thing, and if it isn't well we can all get one of them Dandy Horses !