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Skinny tyres on a 650b rim would be harsh on a hardtail I reckon, I'll stick with 26's and large volume tyres for now.
Still, it will be interesting how this pans out.
'The Industry' that you guys seem to want to denigrate, is a genuine force of innovation and improvement.
Without 'the industry' - you wouldn't have bikes & kit.
650B had its renaissance about 6 years back when Mr. Kirk Pacenti was looking for a way to use the largest possible wheel-size - while retaining time-proven MTB geometry.. having become frustrated with the design compromises necessary to fit 29" wheels.
Myself and others have been riding and pushing 650B for these last few years - lobbying the big guys to get on board and take up the standard. Most haven't wanted to know - Fox even forbade the use of 650B wheels in it's forks. The risk of confusing the consumer (and the retailer) with 3 different wheel-sizes was also a major concern.
I, for one, am chuffed to bits that 650B is finally getting it's day in the sun.. Why would you not want the choice??
The ride is very similar to 26" bikes - all the whippy-ness but smoother and grippier IMO
Without 'the industry' - you wouldn't have bikes & kit.
😆
I'm sticking to me 26er chaps!
The Borg won't assimilate me. 😀
I, for one, am chuffed to bits that 650B is finally getting it's day in the sun.. Why would you not want the choice??
I do want the choice - to be able to carry on being able to get quality 26" spares should I choose to - this will be taken away over time.
So which shop is this? Sounds like one to avoid.
The bike progresses to what riders have been asking for.
So we all wanted push fit BB ?
I thought the reason was the higher tolerances they could cope with and the fact it made it cheaper to produce ...still bless them for responding to the demand 🙄
Without 'the industry' - you wouldn't have bikes & kit.
I think without folk willing to buy stuff there would be no industry - they are not doing it out of altruism
Why would you not want the choice??
you ar eabout to answer that for yourself
The ride is very similar to 26" bikes
We know that is the point
bollox to it all i say!
i was told that 26" is dead by a certain industry guy,in response i said that 99% of all who i ride with and have rode with and other groups also adamantly do not want to change from 26"
nuff said.
instead of wheel size invent a better derailleur or somet.
ahhh wait on there's too much money made out of snapped derailleurs.
I for one thought that the majority of stw users would be buying into what will be the standard
[img] 
[/img]
nixon_fiend - Member
'The Industry' that you guys seem to want to denigrate, is a genuine force of innovation and improvement.Without 'the industry' - you wouldn't have bikes & kit.
650B had its renaissance about 6 years back when Mr. Kirk Pacenti was looking for a way to use the largest possible wheel-size - while retaining time-proven MTB geometry.. having become frustrated with the design compromises necessary to fit 29" wheels.
Myself and others have been riding and pushing 650B for these last few years - lobbying the big guys to get on board and take up the standard. Most haven't wanted to know - Fox even forbade the use of 650B wheels in it's forks. The risk of confusing the consumer (and the retailer) with 3 different wheel-sizes was also a major concern.
[b]I, for one, am chuffed to bits that 650B is finally getting it's day in the sun.. Why would you not want the choice??[/b]
The ride is very similar to 26" bikes - all the whippy-ness but smoother and grippier IMO
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST
Oh jeez, please tell me you are joking! Either that or you work in a bike shop like the op 🙄
I could see the point of 650b if it was bang in the middle between 26" and 29"
Stats so far this bike-guiding season:
Total clients - about 100 so far.
650b - 1
29" - 2
26" - all the rest
Remind me what riders want again?
Dusty trails please
Dusty trails please
#Like# 😉
Got plenty of those at the moment too... 😉
Bikes is what they want, just bikes and no bollox!
The problem is that the 'Industry' has reduced the choice by 1/3 by scrapping 26" wheels & tyres without giving a trial period.Why would you not want the choice??
Where's the choice there?
prices rise due to 3 wheel sizes
shite
gonna **** this mtb off if it carries on and do bmx
It's not the wheels which people generally revile OP. Its the pushy marketing more than anything, TBH I'm sure 650b has some advantages and I may well in due course end up owning a 650b bike. But really your lot need to STFU for a bit, stop pushing the bloody things like it really matters, none of us really believe we're going to"miss out".
Its a marginal increase in wheel size which incurs significant cost that a fair few don't fancy right now, you'll pardon the cynicism but let's be honest, it's an industry, a bunch of businesses looking to make profit. don't get all surprised when she don't instantly acquire a huge Lob on for your latest version of the wheel...
As a marketing tactic regularly starting up circular interweb arguments over this topic is on a par with a butcher marching up to vegans and shouting about his love of eating dead animal bits, he's unlikely to convert his audience, and should probably expect to see a reasonably hostile response...
As for working 20-25 years flogging bicycles, good for you, you clearly enjoy it, but you'd be the last person I'd ask about I'm sorry, but in much the same way I'd not ask someone working in a ford dealership, what car I should buy, why would I ask you when your loyalties clearly lie with whichever brand(s) your shop are pushing...
Maybe the OP is a bit of a snob?
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/lbs-owners-snobs
bikeind - MemberI have over 25 years working within the cycle industry and my knowledge is superior you could say so when a customer says that to me it baffles me
Dont think he liked my sales pitch one bit,which was a real shame as I don't like a customer to leave empty handed out of my shops
The word 'tool' keeps entering my head? Perhaps I need to order a park tool.
prices rise due to 3 wheel sizesshite
gonna **** this mtb off if it carries on and do bmx
Have you not heard?
They are calling it 21.75".
Its not quite half way between 20" and 24" just big enough to necessitate a new frame & fork, and you'd actually be hard pushed to spot any difference but apparently it make the park/track/trails/half pipe "come alive!"
yeah think i read it somwhere
gets worse dunt it
Op- you are dave hinde and I claim £5
Well it goes without saying that we yes we in the bike industry have to earn a living just like everyone else you know!!
And after being in it so long now maybe I am influenced by which direction it goes
I am a salesmen and yes I do like to make a sale who doesn't huh
No I am not dave hinde
Fruit?
And after being in it so long now maybe I am influenced by which direction it goes
I am a salesmen and yes I do like to make a sale who doesn't huh
Just tell us who you are and where you work, people will be beating a path to your door 🙂
Junkyard - lazarus - Quote
Fruit?
Superstar's 650b wheels are only 648a or maybe 652dd, but whichever they are it's your bike that wrong 😉
I've already progressed beyond 650b, I believe the ideal wheel size is somewhere between 650b and a 29er. Whilst I have a sneaking suspicion that there may be some men in dark rooms currently working on a set of graphics indicating a whole new range of nominal benefits of this wheel to allow me to be 0.0000000000034% more gnar, the PR men will never allow this till the[s]y have milked 650b to death[/s] spectre of 26' wheels has departed. I'm sure more riders will see the light in this new wheel size and help generate enough demand for the industry to accommodate this new size.
You mean a true 27.5"?
It seems that 650b is an "answer" to an economic rather than a biking issue.
There's a recession. People are cutting back and where they can, are buying good quality second hand stuff. So, how do the bike industry respond and make people buy new things?
Simple, a new "standard". If most new bikes are the new standard, there's no (or at best, a sorely restricted) second hand parts market. And the losers with a now "defunct" standard? Tough. All your cash are belong to Trek or Giant or one of the other behemoths with a buy in to delivering ever greater shareholder value. It's all BS.
We've seen the same thing happen with smaller components over a while. BB's and cranks. 4/5 arm cranks, o/s handlebars. And then the push to taper steerers etc etc. The issue is that the big boys have got greedy. New wheels, not enough, now frame not enough. Now they want the second hand market dead and you dumping 5k every other year on a new bike.
What they can't see is that they're killing MTBing. People are buying less. And "new" folk won't bother because there's too many variables and too much to understand. Want a racer? 1 size of wheels, all bikes look alike. Want an MTB? What are you doing with it? XC? 29er. DH? 26... or 650b. All round? Who knows? Sticker shock and buyer confusion. At the same time the "little guys" like Cotic suffer too, as they can't carry all frame sizes and (understandably) don't want to bet the farm on a new, possibly failing standard.
It's like VHS/Beta, BluRay/HD DVD all over again - and on both these occasions, the ordinary Joe stopped buying till a standard was agreed on. Except in MTB, there's *always* a new standard.
If i buy a bicycle related product am i in 'the industry' too? You're simply a salesman (unless you make the stuff you sell).
I don't get why people get so precious about different sized wheels on here. In the [i]real [/i]world no one gives a stuff.
p8ddy - MemberIt seems that 650b is an "answer" to an economic rather than a biking issue.
There's a recession. People are cutting back and where they can, are buying good quality second hand stuff. So, how do the bike industry respond and make people buy new things?
Simple, a new "standard". If most new bikes are the new standard, there's no (or at best, a sorely restricted) second hand parts market. And the losers with a now "defunct" standard? Tough. All your cash are belong to Trek or Giant or one of the other behemoths with a buy in to delivering ever greater shareholder value. It's all BS.
We've seen the same thing happen with smaller components over a while. BB's and cranks. 4/5 arm cranks, o/s handlebars. And then the push to taper steerers etc etc. The issue is that the big boys have got greedy. New wheels, not enough, now frame not enough. Now they want the second hand market dead and you dumping 5k every other year on a new bike.
What they can't see is that they're killing MTBing. People are buying less. And "new" folk won't bother because there's too many variables and too much to understand. Want a racer? 1 size of wheels, all bikes look alike. Want an MTB? What are you doing with it? XC? 29er. DH? 26... or 650b. All round? Who knows? Sticker shock and buyer confusion. At the same time the "little guys" like Cotic suffer too, as they can't carry all frame sizes and (understandably) don't want to bet the farm on a new, possibly failing standard.
It's like VHS/Beta, BluRay/HD DVD all over again - and on both these occasions, the ordinary Joe stopped buying till a standard was agreed on. Except in MTB, there's *always* a new standard.
well said
P8ddy, Its not that they want the second hand market dead
its the fact that they want the replacement and upgrades market dead
People buying niche brand frames and transplanting their components, or replacing bits when they wear out, is [b]really[/b] bad for the people who sell complete bikes.
I am a salesmen and yes I do like to make a sale
The first grain of truth you have uttered since starting this thread/sales promotion.
I want a hover bike.
P8ddy +1
benji - MemberI am a salesmen and yes I do like to make a sale
The first grain of truth you have uttered since starting this thread/sales promotion.
Posted 28 minutes ago # Report-Post
I think it was a lame attempt at trolling too. He can show it to his little friends in his shop.
Macavity - MemberThere will be lots of new stuff at,
And the 650b fiasco has put me off buying any of it.
It's like VHS/Beta, BluRay/HD DVD all over again - and on both these occasions, the ordinary Joe stopped buying till a standard was agreed on by the porn industry. Except in MTB, there's *always* a new standard
I work at a shop and we have yet to sell a 650b. 29 is still selling, 26 less so, but not a single 650b. Rider demand eh?? Like many of the comments above, it's not the wheel size everyone hates, it's the industry attitude of "here's a plate of bulls**t, now eat it up!" and expecting everyone to believe that their new mousetrap is [b]THE BESTEST EVAR![/b] buy one, and line their pockets with money. Last time i saw an idea forced on mtb like this was Shimano's dual control/rapid rise fiasco, and we all know how that one turned out... [END RANT]
[i]Is[/i] there a bike porn industry? We need to ask them? Where's RonJeremy when you need him?
So will this standard migrate to Fat bikes too
and should folks be stockpiling 26 inch tyres with a view to them increasing in value as the bikeshops run out
Or is it a storm in an inner tube and nowt to worry about
Is there a bike porn industry? We need to ask them? Where's RonJeremy when you need him?
In the bike shop on a shoot?
The thing about the mtb industry is that it seems to be trying very hard to create the apperance of innovation without actually innovating
Why all the time and energy spent changing axle sizes, headset sizes, handlebar clamp sizes, bottom brackets, and wheel sizes for marginal (or quite possibly no) gains and yet you leave a fairly important drivetrain component unchanged from the system that's been used for the last 100 years?
Could it be that designing a half decent gearbox bike is actually a bit difficult and might require some actual R&D costs when the far cheaper option is to change a dimension or two and proclaim this latest innovation the second coming?
and yet you leave a fairly important drivetrain component unchanged from the system that's been used for the last 100 years?
money in it eh snapping and replacing all the time.
Like many others who have posted on this thread i wished to express my feelings on the great "2013 : 650B" debate as i ride 26", and have no desire to go that little bit faster or roll over stuff easier - i ride bikes coz i enjoy getting out in the hills and taking in the views, seeing new places, discovering new trails etc.
As i try and formulate a suitable witty and concise response i feel my brain cells withering and dying, by merely typing what i have so far i fear that on my deathbed i'll rue the day i wasted 5 mins of my life attempting to state my opinion on a **** web forum of all places, so here's a summery of how i feel about the perceived manufacturer led 650b onslaught (from a bike shop mechanics perspective). for me it boils down to "New wheel format? - Lets sell em' more shit"
[img] 
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It's a small part of the market - I don't think it's a motivator here.People buying niche brand frames and transplanting their components, or replacing bits when they wear out, is really bad for the people who sell complete bikes.
Could it be that designing a half decent gearbox bike is actually a bit difficult and might require some actual R&D costs when the far cheaper option is to change a dimension or two and proclaim this latest innovation the second coming?
What and right off sales of mechs?
I'm sticking with 700c for all of my bikes.
simondbarnes - MemberI'm sticking with 700c for all of my bikes.
Go on then, post up a picture of your Brompton. 🙂
Could it be that designing a half decent gearbox bike is actually a bit difficult and might require some actual R&D costs when the far cheaper option is to change a dimension or two and proclaim this latest innovation the second coming?
no its because the four people that might just want one are insignificant (on top of them being shite) and riding round the city on a brompton with a reliable gear hub is a market share worth going for
ffs you think a company with a budget like honda threw the towel on because it was a bit hard?
Well, I like my 650B hardtail. Rode it to top ten at Hadleigh Farm today. Works for me!
ffs you think a company with a budget like honda threw the towel on because it was a bit hard?
Honda didn't throw in the towel on gearboxes, they threw the towel in on mountain biking.
They came into mountain biking and designed a bike from first principles rather than trying to adapt a safety bicycle to the task, hence they ended up using a gearbox since it's the obvious solution if you hadn't been brainwashed to accept traditional bike constrution as the only way to go.
It's a real shame that Honda quit. They were the only ones really trying to advance bicycle design. Possibly they realised that there were already too many companies changing the dimensions of various components from the standard and calling this a game changer. With BS such as changing from 26 to 650b being touted as a worthwhile endevour you can see why they might be worried that a genuine change would get lost in all the noise.
http://www.eurobike-show.com/eb-en/
Go every year or I send one of my employees
Spoke to Gary Fisher there last year who stated that 26" is dead
We shall see
Those that like the 650b great 8)
stated that 26" is dead
Not if we don't want it to be. Remember, there's no money in it if customers don't want to buy it. And we're all feeling a bit skint right now in case you hadn't noticed?
The whole 650B thing stinks of bullying, and that's what I think is riling so many people. You should take account of that if you want your business to survive...
there's a whole lot of companies over the years that have failed because they forgot the fundamental rule that the money comes in from giving customers want they want to buy... you're heading for a Ratners moment if you carry on with such an arrogant attitude
Here's Brenden Fairclough's Downhill gearbox bike at the fort bill world champs 2007, the execution of the design maybe left something to be desired but on a "go-on, let us have a quick shot" blag i thought it it was bloody good.
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Ok, the project was shelved but we need daft ideas like this rather than the entire industry clubbing together to push wheels sizes as the saviour of mtb's
That would be the Gary Fisher employed by the Trek Bicycle Corporation?
Or a different wierdy beardy old fella with the dress sense of a clown wheeled out whenever they need to lend some old school legitimacy to their big new "Ideas"?
FFS just give it up... Please.
Spoke to Gary Fisher there last year who stated that 26" is dead
We shall see
That doesn't mean bugger-all i'm afraid.....
I've shared a big fat Northern Lights joint wi Gary Fisher and talked shite for ages whilst discussing the finer merits of a two skinner joint vs using three papers vs using blunts , he's immensenly entertaining as a person and i'd have him as a dinner guest every night of the week for his passion and love for mtb'ing but as for his belief that 26" is dead?......I'd love to have that argument wi him over a few J's..........
or the same Gary fisher that proclaimed he always wanted to use 29" wheels but couldn't find anyone to manufacture tyres for them for 30 years 🙄
no doubt trek will wheel the old fart again to try and push 650b.
It was the legend yes
I don't think that bikeind is really grasping what most folks here are saying.
It's not the wheel size itself that being objected to, it's the industry's approach to it. I think this sums it up quite nicely -
The whole 650B thing stinks of bullying, and that's what I think is riling so many people.
So, 26" wheels, the most common size of wheel on the planet, used in their millions all over Asia as a main method of transport. These are going to be phased out, because an eldery mountain bike icon said 2cm bigger would be better?
Seems like a stupid time to jump ship. CRC have:
240x 26" wheelsets, 19x 650b wheels.
276x 26" tyres, 18x 650b tyres.
124x 26" forks, 7x 650b forks.
Enjoy paying top prices for essentially the same product.
So, 26" wheels, the most common size of wheel on the planet, used in their millions all over Asia as a main method of transport. These are going to be phased out, because an eldery mountain bike icon said so?
And this is a valid point - touring bikes will save you : ) tourers won't be moving to en-mass to 650B, ever, so you'll be able to get 17-19mm internal width 26" rims for a while yet. Many will be rim-brake versions but tourers also have discs.
CRC have
Allegedly annoyed a lot of distributors so don't have the range of new stock they once did?
Not defending 650B which I think is marketing-driven, but CRC maybe not the best place for comparison of what's available.
Actually, on a similar note to above.
CRC still have MORE square taper BBs, than they have PF30 + BB30 bottom brackets added together, regardless of the fact no one has made square taper chainsets in about 5-6 years?
Do they? I'd better stock up!
I've not owned a 29 or 650 yet. Maybe in 5yrs time when I have a midlife crisis. Yesterday I saw 3 middled aged blokes fullykitted out for the mountins on their 29'ers....in Manchester.
Shocking. I saw some guys on MTBs in London once. Dunno about the wheel size. Maybe they were heading out of town, maybe to a station to get a train to somewhere to ride. Even done that myself a few times.fullykitted out for the mountins on their 29'ers....in Manchester.
They were on Manchester trails not heading to the Surrey Alps
so, can you buy a high end 26" wheeled HT in 2014? or is there a limited choice?
Maybe they were passing through manchester on a few-day ride taking in the Peak dist and a few other spots? All I'm saying is, who cares what they were doing/riding/etc )
Wrongside of Manchester but 29ers are the preserve of the middle aged crisis-types.
Prob see the odd young rider but for the main its middled-aged types agonising over their riding/life.
Well, I picked up the new 650b Sight on Saturday and took it round Penmachno in the afternoon and down Snowdon early on Sunday. First thoughts are that it is a very nice bike. Climbs well, descends superbly, handles the tight, fast, gnarly singletrack of Penmachno just fine and coped with everything Snowdon could throw at it without any issues. Did the 650 wheels make a tangible difference? Hard to say, particularly given I've traded to more travel and slacker angles than my other bike (Turner Flux). I've never ridden Snowdon before, so can't make a valid comparison, but I have been to Penmachno a few times and it certainly felt a bit more flowy, like the wheels were able to glide a bit more over the rocks/ruts.
Was it faster? - Again, hard to say. It was my first time back on a bike since a pretty harsh otb on the Edale loop a couple of weeks ago, so I was probably a bit more tentative than would otherwise have been the case, but it felt like it flowed really well and I I certainly feel that the geometry and riding position were better for me as an XL rider, in that I didn't feel quite so perched above the wheels.
Will it catch on/is it the right thing?
No idea! But I've previously stated that to me it seems crazy to have the same wheel sizes for radically different sized frames/riders. Bigger wheels certainly seem to sit better with the size of frames that I ride, maybe that's the future, wheelsize defined by the size of the rider.
As an afterthought, the FS mountain bike industry has only really been around for 20 odd years. That's a very small amount of time in the bigger picture and certainly a small one to decide on one standard and say this is the perfect one for time immemorial. I would have thought it would take longer than that for all permutations to be worked through sufficiently for the optimum size to be defined. As I understand it, 26" became default because mountain bikes were "invented" in the states and 26" wheels were what the clunkers that they used to to barrel down mountains took. If they'd been invented in France (though the French probably claim that they were 😉 ) then the European standard 29" would probably have prevailed. Seems a pretty hit and miss way of deciding upon the best wheel size to me. And in fairness, to those above who see him as nothing more than a willing mouthpiece for Trek, I believe that Mr Fisher was expounding the benefits of larger wheels long before Fisher was bought by Trek.
Anyway, I'm happy with the bike and the wheels seem to work well with the larger frame and whilst I agree that the marketing/hype around 650b has been a little excessive, at the end of the day it's horses for courses and we should all just get out there and ride 🙂
Or 650B could have prevailed since it was the go-to size for 50's french rough-road randonneur bikes with fatter tyres and there were off-roaders in france pre marin county.As I understand it, 26" became default because mountain bikes were "invented" in the states and 26" wheels were what the clunkers that they used to to barrel down mountains took. If they'd been invented in France (though the French probably claim that they were ) then the European standard 29" would probably have prevailed.
I once invested in Sony Mini Disc HiFi stuff thinking to myself (young and naive) that how could it possibly not take off? My Dad warned me about it being new. I didn't really have the intelligence or forward thinking about the future as had never experienced anything like it (too young to really take in the betamax thing except to see it and think it was "cool"). It's when you start spending your own money on things that you wake up and think...arr....that wasn't such a good idea. I lost a fair amount of money on that.
Fast forward to Bluray vs HD DVD. I was happy to watch it play out. I would not invest in a format that would die. I predicted HD DVD would win and watched some of my friends spend hundreds on HD DVD players, HD DVD and even new TVs. Then it failed and was dropped. People lost money. But not as many...
These days people are more clued up. They research purchases more since they have less disposable income. People read reviews and experiences. People want value. Markets are competitive. People are happy to sit tight and watch what happens.
When a new "standard" comes out, it is much more scrutinized these days. People are less susceptible to marketing. When new "standards" come out which can change the value of currently owned possessions, people often will meet these standards with (and rightly so) questions and doubt. It is only natural. I think we as consumers have become more immune to these so called "standards" and are beginning to become tougher in our acceptance of them. We are starting to see the true colours of companies and how these "standards" are really just disguised profit.
If a genuinely good product comes out and it is innovative, then fine. But re-inveting the wheel (quite literally) is going to be met with criticism, since it just so happens so warrant a whole new bike.
This seems like as good a place as any to also have a mini rant generally about new bike prices. There is no way new bikes are worth their price tags a lot of the time. I walked past a shop window the other day and saw an all mountain bike in there which whilst more modern and probably better than mine, I don't think it is £3000 better than mine. I mean really, who can afford a £3699 bike that's essentially a toy? I've not owned a car worth more than that.
I mean really, who can afford a £3699 bike that's essentially a toy? I've not owned a car worth more than that.
What's your name? Vladimir Lenin? 😉
The OP and others pushing 650B should read the post from coursemyhorse - some very sensible insight there...
We're all watching the pennies more than we used to, and far far better at educating ourselves. Not just about bikes, but allsorts.
I think the OP and bike industry have misjudged this one badly.
Not the introduction of a new wheelsize, I think the argument about choice and diff wheels for different sizes of rider is fair enough... but the threat of refusing to support the massive installed base will, I think turn out to be a New Coke/DCC/Minidisc scenario.
I agree on bike prices. I've never bought a whole/new bike.
Agree with a lot of the comments re bike prices. Ironically my recent purchase was the first time I've bought a mountain bike as a complete bike since I bought a Cannondale hardtail back in 2006. Usually I'd buy a frame or a 2nd hand (though the market for XL frames/bikes is tiny). It was in the sales though and the price was so good I figured buy it, ride it and upgrade it as and when as it's an excellent platform. In truth I decided that I needed more travel for the riding I'm increasingly doing and an upcoming trip to the Alps next week focused my mind. Although the price of the bike was good value, once I've upgraded the wheels, fork, groupset and finishing kit it will end up at the 2.5k - 3k mark depending on how much of the right stuff I can get secondhand. Still, it's cheaper than sports cars or motorbikes as a hobby and as long as I can stay rubber side down, healthier as well.. 😀