[Closed] 650B Plus - Remind me what the point is

29+ is where it's at

+ Provide extra grip

this is the main benefit touted

can you try your bike with 29er wheels to compare or does it need a special e-bike rear hub?

to sell more stuff to people who already have slightly different stuff?

What pressures are you running? plus tyres are definitely more sensitive to having the correct pressure and there is a sweet spot depending on your weight, rims etc... I imagine it's the same or even more pronounced with fat bikes.

Normal rear hub so I guess I could try a 29"

I am not sure if it is just because I haven't ridden for a while but the tyres really don't seem to have much grip around Lordswood - mud and roots with a thin coating of wet leaves.

It may be because I am riding faster that before because of the assist or perhaps the extra weight but I have the tyres sliding on most rides and not always when I am trying to. It is made worse when I run them at bike park pressure - 35psi) but still happens at 20psi and any lower the tyres start squirming

To me they make more sense on rigid or hard tails than FS bikes, also they are more suited to long distance rides with a low(ish) level of technicality rather than trail centre riding. It would be interesting to see what wheel/tyre combos are being used on the Trail Divide for example.

The extra grip is very noticeable on loose climbs (I'd imagine fat bikes exhibit this even more). I've not had chance to use mine in mud yet but on a test loop with varying types of surface I managed to get several PBs for the same level of effort (monitored by HR). This loop has a very short loose climb out of a beck, I've never been able to get up it cleanly until I put the B+ tyres on.

They are a compromise, possibly a bit more of one than other wheels/tyres. I wouldn't use them all the time but having a set of wheels to swap in/out is useful.

Eeks I think 20psi is missing the point of plus tyres.

I'm a big guy and only get squirm below 12 psi, my sweet spot is around 13-14psi

Any harder and you may as well be on normal tyres imho. The grip and the bump absorption that keep you rolling faster just won't be present at 20psi.

What tyres are they?

With respect to mud, yes they are crap at that... ONnly thing I found any good on the front in mud is a dirt wizard, but I did see a pic of a 3" minion somewhere which may also work

Yep, extra grip is pretty much the big one, fantastic on roots, also really good on fast flat corners. They are shiet in mud, as they're not big enough to 'float'.

I keep thinking they're a bit 'meh', but then I put the 29er wheels back on and the bike feels scrabbly in comparison, so the B+ go back on. Strange.

Mines are on FS for info, I'd imagine they'd be more of an upgrade on a HT.

The tyres are nobby nics.

I did run them at 15psi front and 12 psi rear for one ride.

I agree about the fantastic grip on rooty and gravelly climbs bit then no real control when riding fast or down hill as both wheels will move side to side so much as the tyre carcass twists it just gets scary

no real control when riding fast or down hill as both wheels will move side to side so much as the tyre carcass twists it just gets scary

Definitely not felt that, I've rattled down some pretty fast, techy trails, bike feels more planted than it does on non 'plus' tyres.

Plus tyres on an e-bike will need completely different pressure to a normal plus bike. The additional weight it something you might not be used to.I find the plus tyres sensitive to pressure changes.

Now that I have mine setup right, I find all the benefits you listed that you apparently lack, apart from being a attention whore- no one seems to notice and that suits me. It is on a rigid bike that I use on flowy trails and long XC days.

I generally don’t like to criticize any bike but I had a disastrous demo of a Stumpy 650b+. Maybe I picked the wrong time to try it but on wet muddy trails it just felt disconnected from the ground, didn’t want to stay in a straight line squirming badly on the muddy top surface (after 2 days of rain), and it felt like the tyres were being sucked to the ground on muddy climbs. I also found it difficult to get the right pressures in the tyres as they either felt too squirmy at lower pressures or bounced back (uncontrolled rebound) at higher pressures, and to round off the demo I managed to tear a hole in the rear Ground Control so had to push out.
I’m glad I managed to get some time on plus tyres, as it confirmed what I already thought about them, that they’re not for me, not on the main bike anyway, but the thing is I could see a lot of potential benefits on some of the easier flowy trails, where the tyres weren’t being pushed to their limits, and as pointed out above I think they will be more successful on rigid bikes and hardtails than longer travel trail/AM bikes.

All bikes are a compromise. For some people B+ hits the sweet spot, for others it would be some other size. The problem comes when the marketing department decide it's the "next big thing" and start speccing it on everything.

My experiences aren't quite as bad as Yetiman describes but along similar lines.

The tyres are not ruining my riding, they just don't seem to add anything to it.

I guess I will spend some time riding a short loop repeatedly with different tyre pressures until I get something that works.

I did run them at 15psi front and 12 psi rear for one ride.

That wants to be the other way round... try 12 front and 15 rear

It's a new topping you can put on your favourite dessert. Inevitably the bike industry has seized on it as a sales thing. "Why would you put chocolate sprinkles on your ice cream, when you can throw it away, and spend £2000 to get BRAND NEW ICE CREAM WITH CHOCOLATE SPRINKLES!". But I might still get me some sprinkles for a bit of variety.

[i]That wants to be the other way round... try 12 front and 15 rear [/i]

You are right - it was that way round. It was the numbers recommended somewhere on the internet I tried when I first got the bike

What size rims on the Scott btw? I reckon rim width has a big bearing on tyre volume, squirm and grip.

My original setup of FatBnimbles front and rear was almost comedic as the front simply slid away on anything wet. A 3" Nobby Nic out front has completely cured that. Still FBN on the rear. It's interesting but works.

Syncros X-40 / 27.5" / Tubeless Ready 40mm wide / 32H / Eyelets
Nobby Nic EVO / 2.85x27.5

I've had a couple of squirming issues (but we won't talk about that 😕 ) but they seemed to be coincident with following narrow water runnels so the rear tyre was rolling on/off the edge of the runnel.

As others say, getting the pressures right is key, it's similar to setting up suspension and it takes a bit of experimentation to find out what's right for you. Running 15/12 front-rear sounds the wrong way round to me BTW.

Once there was a 26" wheel that said "I'm not big enough!"
So someone changed him into a 29" wheel "WEEE!"
The 29" wheel said, "Man I'm so big and clumsy!"
So they made him into an inbetweenie size! "Perfect!"

Then he said, "My tire is so skinny!"
So they made him wear a big fat 4" tyre. And they called him Fatty.
He didn't like that, so he went on a diet and wore an inbetweenie size tyre!
"3 inches is perfect!"

And people wondered why he wished he was a road bike wheel.

Now I am struggling to remember which way around I had the tyre pressure. I just remember that one was15 and the other 12.

I just did what the internet told me

not the article I found last time but lower front pressure than rear.

From here > http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/newbikemo/2016-buyers-guide-the-gloriously-strange-scott-genius-720-plus

And, as I said, it took me a bit to acquire a feel for the ride of the Genius 720 Plus. For all the added forgiveness they offer on the trail, Plus wheels and tires seem to be ironically more finicky to dial in than traditional wheel/tire combos. If you get a Plus bike, invest in a Presta gauge that offers an accurate low-PSI readout. It doesn’t have to be expensive; Meiser makes an excellent one with a brass chuck and accurate dial for less than $30, in versions that go from 0 to 30psi or even 0 to 15.

They’re crucial, because I ultimately settled on 10psi front and 12 rear, which is below the resolution of most floor pumps. Much higher, and the bike would buck wickedly in high-speed rocky sections. A tire is essentially suspension, and it’s in series with the fork and shock, which means it will compress in response to a hit before the shock does. But tires offer almost no rebound damping option to the rider (though manufacturers may be able to dial them in with some rubber compound choices) so an overinflated tire will also bounce back as fast as it compresses, leading to a rattle-y, uncontrolled feel that’s almost impossible to slow down simply by messing with suspension settings.

For years MTB'ers have sought to bring down rolling resistance and rotating mass, whilst still keeping a reasonable amount of strength and grip in their wheels.

Running big fat tyres at stupidly low pressures on huge rims just seems to be a step in the wrong direction. Personally I don't get it and believe it's a fad that will soon die out

Running big fat tyres at stupidly low pressures on huge rims just seems to be a step in the wrong direction. Personally I don't get it and believe it's a fad that will soon die out

It's not a 'one-fits-all' solution. It's an option that works for certain applications, hence the various wheelsizes. In the same way that I wouldn't expect you to use a dropper and 800mm bars with 180mm travel if you're competing in a 24hr endurance race.

It's ridiculous to state that it's a step in the wrong direction. What it does is offer you a choice. One which may, or may not, apply to your use.

For my Stooge it's perfect. I use that bike for messing around in the (fairly) flat woods, taking in long rides on the ridgeway and long days out on the downs. The tyres offer great grip and take sting out of the local bits without any additional maintenance. I wouldn't use the Stooge to ride trail centres, bikeparks or Enduros. Likewise, I wouldn't use an enduro bike to try and ride the stooge trails.

I just did what the internet told me

That's what you're doing wrong then 😉

I rode a Trek Stache 5 29+ with a rigid fork and found it great for all round useage. As you have found, not great in the mud as lack of directional control but overall a great bike that suited my riding style (Longer days in the saddle, mainly singletrack and fireroads). Would definitely say having the electric assist and suspension will make a huge difference so worth playing around with tyre pressure and suspension set up as they're obviously going to work at different compression rates. Ebikes on standard width tyres can be pretty sketchy with the extra speed into corners and more weight needing to be slowing down which is worth bearing in mind.

Industry has noticed fat bike sales have plateaued/downward trajectory so they've brought out another pointless niche within it to part more cash from the gullible 😆

Industry has noticed fat bike sales have plateaued/downward trajectory so they've brought out another pointless niche within it to part more cash from the gullible

Suitable username!

One thing that 650B+ has in its favour is that if you have a 29er you can give it a go for the price of a second wheel set. I could do with a second set of wheels now I run tubeless (it was way easier to change tubed...).

So this is what I've done.

It's different from standard29er. Not wildly so, but it seems suited to my preferred riding (increased grip on loose stuff, helps take some of the jitter out of things). Putting back on the 29ers felt slow... ❓

Once its rolling, got momentum up it feels good to me. Doesn't hamper me unless I'm in the rooty/techy woods which I'm slower at. Lower b/b means some pedal strike though. Plus is gets 'trapped' easier in ruts/channels.

I'm not sure what the point is but mines an absolute blast.

I've had 29+ and 27.5+ on the same bike (Stache). I liked them both. Not had enough time on the 27.5s to work out which I like more yet. Only way I'd own a HT now is a chubby tho. YMMV. I run 15/12 on the 27.5+ and a bit less on the 29+. Seems to grip, climb, roll pretty well.

I've got a fat bike as well so clearly I'm the idiot those marketeers are looking for 😉

they're fun

I got my Scale 710plus as it was an great option rather than building a steel hard tail for the winter.
I had a good few rides trying to dial in tyre pressure and to be honest, I've only just got it dialled.
My sweet spot for tech trail riding is too low when the trails are man made with high speed corners or if I'm riding slickrock. Low pressures gives a weird steering feel on rock or tarmac where it's really hard to get the bike lean from one side to the other. Transferring of one sidewall to the other makes the tyres feel literally stuck and trying to counter steer on turn in gets really weird.
Too high pressure and it's another hardtail that's brutal on my lower back.
Now I'm mostly dialled, 1bar rear, a hair less than 1 bar front and the bike is superbly capable up and down. In fact, I'd say brilliant fun and kept me well in touch with local xc race results.
Bare in mind those 2.8 schwalbes are a pretty light tire and the sidewalls flex more than a heavier tire. The extra weight of these genius would warrant more pressure id guess.
I've sugguested plus bikes to a few people. I think if you are already competent in the corners and can commit your bike in at speed, then a plus bike isn't the best thing. If you struggle with cornering traction or want some additional confidence with descending then yes, a plus bike is a great option.
It has changed my riding and I'm riding my 36 forked 'regular' genius better for having spent a winter on that particular plus bike. My 27.5 genius now runs 1 bar front/20psi rear.

That's a good point, maybe the op should try something like a chronicle with the exo wall casing...

650B Plus - Remind me what the point is

I know this will freak some folk out but everything about a bike and how it rides is determined by more than just tyre width. If I was to suggest that all 26" wheel bikes were identical you'd think I was stupid.

OP, Be brave with tyre pressure, I've had my 29+ tyres down as low as 7psi and I'm proper heavy. They seem to get squirmy about 15psi, then they go through that and by about 11 or 12psi, that squirminess sort of becomes squishiness, which makes riding a lot more fun.
I stand by my scientific description.

[img] [/img]

Maybe....

I don't know Lordswood, but on a hardtail, they're blimmin fun in the Lakes

Maybe they feel squirmy as you have the massive weight of an e-bike, plus your own weight on something you are trying to run at low pressure.

Nick, you can try my tyres once the bike is built. Should be able to put my front wheel into your forks.

Hardtail 650+ on the back and 29er 2.4 on the front. Thrilling. About to stick a Chronicle/40mm rim on to see if it turns into the Bastard I want it to be.

[b]WorldClassAccident[/b]

My Scott eGenius has 650B Plus tyres.

I own the [b]Scott eGenius 910 with 29er[/b]. I must admit I wanted to the buy the 27.5 Plus but couldn't get one until 2017 as there sold out this year. But I had some concerns, when I read the reviews they all mentions puncture issues and difficulties in getting the pressures right. Apparently a few psi makes or breaks the ride. I think I might have been lucky they were sold out!

While I am sure much of the issue you have is down to tyres, these eBikes aren't the lightest, and I've had to change my riding technique to work with the considerable extra weight. My other bike is a Scott Spark 29er Carbon which is under half the weight of my eGenius. With that weight it takes a lot of upper body muscling to get it around tighter corners. And with the electric assistance, it wants to run wide on corner exit. If you've got some tips, I would be happy to hear? I am slowly taming the beast.

I hope you find a solution, but worst case can't you put 27.5 standard on the rims?

when I read the reviews they all mentions puncture issues and difficulties in getting the pressures right. Apparently a few psi makes or breaks the ride

Any tips?

I use minimum boost for most riding as I tend to ride in a group and that is enough to help my knackered leg. This means I don't get the super boost pushing me wide. I have suffered that on higher boost and slower trails. There is one twisty, rooty trail called No Dabs which is unbridgeable in Turbo mode, difficult in Sport and best in Eco or Touring. I reserve the higher boost for climbs or pushing mates along the road.

I am going to get a better tyre pressure gauge. The first mark on my current one is 20psi. Any recommendations?

Fat and Plus size tyres were popularised on bikes built for going places. Grip and float are the main parameters wanted there.

It may simply be there are better options for trail centres, especially if you have full suspension.

Epicyclic - I think you are right. They are fine for some stuff but unless the pressure experiments work out they simply add nothing to my rides

[b]WorldClassAccident[/b]

I've got one of these tyre pressure gauges, and it works a treat.

[url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/Schwalbe-Airmax-Digital-Pressure-Valves/dp/B0025TYV7M ]Schwalbe Airmax Pro Digital Pressure Guage[/url]

I nearly always ride in ECO mode as I find that assistance level great. Even in that mode I can feel in loose muddy single track the front wanting to push wide.

Hope you get this issue sorted and give us an update as to what worked for you.

Pressure gauge ordered. Updates to follow

I did run them at 15psi front and 12 psi rear for one ride.
That wants to be the other way round... try 12 front and 15 rear

Apparently a few psi makes or breaks the ride.

I know it most likely makes me a luddite, but it's the above that means I'm out. I understand some folk enjoy working out such levels of details, and I get it. But it's not something I aspire to do. I know all things bring some compromises and some advantages, but I'm more concerned about the smile I get from biking than my wheel size, and I think if I was fussing over a couple of psi that could ruin my ride I would give up. I'll leave this one to the innovators, as I'm sure nailing that tyre pressure will bring it's own rewards and smiles,good luck.

It only takes one or two rides to suss out correct pressure?

Lock everything out and keep letting a bit out 'till everything smooths out.
Note pressure.
Keep letting air out 'till it goes squidgy.
Note pressure.

There you go, a working range of pressures you can experiment with.

Just the same as with any bike, surely?

2 or 3 psi difference seems like a very fine margin but you've got too look on it in percentage terms. Going from 12 to 15 is a 25% increase in tyre pressure. You'd expect any bike to handle differently. Personally, I run around 15 front and rear but don't actually bother to check very often. If it doesn't feel flat, I just ride it.

Okay - without a decent pressure gauge I dropped the tyre pressure until they felt softer than normal and squidged under my thumb pressure. No idea what the pressures are front or rear, just lower than 20 psi and lower, I think, that last time I ran them soft.

A) On the road they felt a bit soft but didn't seem to squirm that much.

B) On the climbs they seemed to grip a bit more which was nice

C) On the descents there was some flex in the sidewalls but not enough to feel uncontrolled like it did last time.

Enjoyed the ride and just checked my Strava recording and it is splattered with PRs. Not that amazing as I wiped all my riding history when I got the eBike but faster on the descents which is encouraging.