[Closed] 650B Freight Train

Yes, I've been thinking that's the way it'll go, kind of makes sense and will allow manufacturers to sell more stuff 😉 which they need with the current financial conditions a bit of a 'push' for the market.
My next mid travel (150ish) FS bike is definatly going to be a 650. 😉

IF I was buying a complete bike, I'd go 650

Having spent ages saving to build my current one though, replacing frame, forks & wheels/tyres in one swoop is a long way off.

650 ftw

if only because i think imperial measurements are crap (im aware 650 wheels arent 650mm)

The issue is not a lack of stuff to sell. It's everywhere. Never been cheaper etc

The issue is people not having the money to buy. Just making new stuff does not mean people will suddenly have the money.

Great swathes of people who ride bikes do no really care what wheel size they have. They just want a bike.

Yep I know, 650 is a better option for given application IMO, another standard may just give people the nudge to buy something though, maybe/possibly. 😉

incidentally whose going to be the first nichemonger to build a 29er front 650 rear then 😉

Marketing BS. Emperor's new clothes.

Marketing BS. Emperor's new clothes.

Exactly. Isn't a 26" with a decent tyre size almost the same as a 650B anyway?

Makes sod all difference to 99% of people, just another PITA standard.

Marketing BS. Emperor's new clothes.

26" only came about because there were loads of wide rims/tyres for beach cruiser bikes. So yes, it was marketing BS, they had a load of 26" wheels/tyres to sell and convince people they were the best. If it had been a decision made on technical merit we'd probably not have used them and addapted 700c/29er toruing rims.

Exactly. Isn't a 26" with a decent tyre size almost the same as a 650B anyway?

But I love my 26" tyres 🙁

But I love my 26" tyres

Then wait 6 months untill they're worn out?

Having never ridden one I'll reserve judgement, but it does seem to me as though it could just be a neat way for the industry to sell us back our old bikes.

So 26" wheels were fine but it was getting hard to convince people to buy new bikes. Enter the 29er with a big marketing push. The problem is that while a 29er is good for some applications it's not ideal for the sort of general messing around that makes up much of the market. So, what to do. You can't just say "stick with your old 26 inch bikes folks". That wont generate many sales. But if you can bring in a "new" standard that is almost the same then you could be onto a winner.

Well that's one cynical interpretation. But, as I say, I'll reserve judgement for now.

Then wait 6 months untill they're worn out?

But I like the way 26" bikes look - their sweet little wheels! 😀

26 inch with a big tyre is already close to 650b with a small tyre. How many people fit bigger tyres to their 26 inch bikes and go zomfg, what a massive difference to the diameter of my wheel! What a difference to the way it hits things!

It's the pissant no-sense compromise-til-most-of-the-benefit's-lost-but-without-removing-the-drawbacks ****er's option. And therefore will probably succeed, like 15mm axles.

Some interesting comments at the bottom of that link... but they only thing they can agree on is that they disagree.

If one size of wheel was faster/better than all the rest it would be obvious at the races and on the trails... but it's not. I think the biggest difference most riders feel when trying a 650b (or 29 or whatever) bike is the joy of relearning old skills on a new bike... if the industry does indeed have us all on 650b's in 5 years; will they in 10 years be raving about how manouverable the new crop of 26" wheeled bikes are?

New bikes feel ace... go buy a new bike and feel the difference 🙄

Problem 1: people aren't buying enough new bikes.

Problem 2: people are upgrading their existing bikes.

Solution: Come up with an innovation that you can't fit to an existing bike.

c.f. tapered steerers, press-fit BBs, etc etc.

[quote=thisisnotaspoon ]
26" only came about because there were loads of wide rims/tyres for beach cruiser bikes. So yes, it was marketing BS, they had a load of 26" wheels/tyres to sell and convince people they were the best. If it had been a decision made on technical merit we'd probably not have used them and addapted 700c/29er toruing rims.
That.
[quote=roverpig ]
The problem is that while a 29er is good for some applications it's not ideal for the sort of general messing around that makes up [s]much [/s][b]a very small percentage [/b]of the market.
How many bikes sold each year are actually used in situations where a smaller wheel is an advantage? A very, very small number.

[b][u]messiah:[/u][/b] New bikes feel ace... go buy a new bike and feel the difference

Very true, which is actually a big help to the industry. How many times have we seen "I just bought a new 29er and it's the best bike I've ever ridden"? Yes it is and so is every new bike you've ever bought. It may have nothing to do with the size of the wheel, but a few people reading that will think "I'd better try one of those new 29ers". Then they buy one, love it (because it's a new bike) and so the wave grows.

How many bikes sold each year are actually used in situations where a smaller wheel is an advantage?

How many MTBs sold each year are actually used off-road? Never mind in the kinds of riding where the difference between 26" and 29" would make any difference whatsoever?

So 26" wheels were fine but it was getting hard to convince people to buy new bikes. Enter the 29er with a big marketing push. The problem is that while a 29er is good for some applications it's not ideal for the sort of general messing around that makes up much of the market. So, what to do. You can't just say "stick with your old 26 inch bikes folks". That wont generate many sales. But if you can bring in a "new" standard that is almost the same then you could be onto a winner.

I disagre, whilst some people may upgrade out of habit or desire to have the latest/greatest bikes. Most people buy a bike, ride it, something breaks, replace it, continue ad-infinium or untill so much is broken that a new one becomes a better option. Then they might change to 650b or a 29er. Or they buy a bike to fill a niche they've identified, maybe they're a DH'er and want an XC bike, or an XCer who wants to go enduro raceing. In which case why not pick a wheel size just like you pick a new fork or frame.

26 inch with a big tyre is already close to 650b with a small tyre. How many people fit bigger tyres to their 26 inch bikes and go zomfg, what a massive difference to the diameter of my wheel! What a difference to the way it hits things!

That's like arguing that removing 1kg from a bike is pointless and you may as well take a shit. You can remove 1kg and take a shit. You can run 650b and big tyres. Just like 29ers are bigger than CX wheels, after all CX wheels are about the same size as 26" with 2.5 tyres, but how many DHers would swap to CX wheels.

How many bikes sold each year are actually used in situations where a smaller wheel is an advantage? A very, very small number.

How do you know that? Or to be more specific, can you prove it?

A smaller wheel is stronger, lighter and easier to accelerate than a larger one. They are all advantages that occur in virtually any cycling situation. It will also fall into small holes easier, along with various other disadvantages that occur in some situations. Proving that one size is better in a single situation is already difficult and nothing I've seen comes remotely close to proof. Trying to quantify the fraction of the market where wheel A is better than wheel B sounds almost impossible to me.

Fashion is a fickle thing. 8 years ago all the dirt jump kids where sticking 24" wheels on their bikes and raving about how brilliant it made them feel.

I disagre, whilst some people may upgrade out of habit or desire to have the latest/greatest bikes. Most people buy a bike, ride it, something breaks, replace it, continue ad-infinium or untill so much is broken that a new one becomes a better option.

Really? If the cycling industry had to rely on bikes breaking to drive new sales I reckon they'd be in trouble. I've got 4 bikes (road x2, MTB & folding). I'm "only" 48, but I reckon they could all be kept running for the rest of my cycling life. OK they may end up like Trigger's brush but I doubt I'd ever "need" to replace a whole bike in one go.

But, as somebody pointed out, we aren't really representative of the cycling market as a whole anyway, so you could be right.

How many bicycle owners know what size their wheels are?

Well, I guess it's nice to have more choice than just two types of a mtb wheel size, isn't it? It may confuse less experienced riders and newbies alike, but it's up to Forums and Sales guys to impartially show the pros and cons of each wheel size.
In my eyes it [u]might[/u] be a good idea to offer different frame sizes with different wheels, eg. XS, S with 26", M and L with 650b and XL, XXL with 29er hoops?
I've caught the 29er bug to the point where I've sold my 26" bikes(bar one;), now I'm looking forward to build a set of 27.5" wheels and do a conversion on the Prophet. I just need to try it before I'll be able say anything about it, that's all.
And the fact that I have to spent some money? I would anyway as I love to tinker with my bikes!

Have a nice weekend!

Having spoken to a well known Endurance racer whose, done back to back timed and tested laps he's now running 650 on his bikes as they worked out to be the best option for his use.

The results showed a clear difference between 26, 650 and 29 standards all of which matched up the physical attributes of the wheel size.

Also the Loco Racing team riders have found considerable benefits with other wheel standards, but as with any bike and component choice it's down to what the rider likes best and if racing makes them quickest.

Not trying to push any specific standard, if anything it'll make my job more complicated due to extra parts etc, but if it makes a more fun and or faster (if that's your thing) bike to ride then that's all good 😀

A smaller wheel is stronger, lighter and easier to accelerate than a larger one. They are all advantages

Apart from stronger (I've yet to bend my 29er wheels so arguably there's a strong enough' point but that's a seperate matter). The other arguments have been applied to road wheels to argue against aero rims. And the conclusion seems that a few hundred grams of aero fairing is quicker than a more traditional rim.

Really? If the cycling industry had to rely on bikes breaking to drive new sales I reckon they'd be in trouble. I've got 4 bikes (road x2, MTB & folding). I'm "only" 48, but I reckon they could all be kept running for the rest of my cycling life. OK they may end up like Trigger's brush but I doubt I'd ever "need" to replace a whole bike in one go.

Maybe I ride my bikes more/harder than you but I've only ever sold on 2 frames (both steel) which I've described as good condition, everything else got an honest decription saying it was bent/batterd or hung up in the back of the shed, and I rarely sell components as working because usualy they're run to a point where I'd not want to buy them so no one else would.

Marketing BS. Emperor's new clothes.

Find me a bike product that doesn't have "marketing bs" behind it.

I'll probally never ride 650b. but choice is good,

whose going to be the first nichemonger to build a 29er front 650 rear then

How about a mini-69er - 650b up front and 24" at the back?

How about a mini-69er - 650b up front and 24" at the back?

Behave! it's madness I tell you, 36er/29er front and rear on the other hand 😆

Singlespeed_Shep - Member

I'll probally never ride 650b. but choice is good,

Choice is starting to disappear though, like 20mm axles & straight steerers - 26" will get hard to find (read expensive)

[quote=honourablegeorge ]26" will get hard to find (read expensive)
Yep. In a few years, 26" MTBs will be specialist kit the same way as DH bikes are now.

Choice is starting to disappear though, like 20mm axles & straight steerers - 26" will get hard to find (read expensive)

Have they?

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Have they?

Loco posted something to that effect - RockShox not offering some options in 2013 range

Aftermarket, there are a limited option in things like axles and steerer diameters for some model ranges, however arts for specific wants can still be sourced for bespoke builds.
Tapered steerers and 15mm axles do seem to be becoming the standard on the higher end products though.

Loco posted something to that effect - RockShox not offering some options in 2013 range

Only on Sid/Reba/Rev's i.e. XC forks, Ok so Rev's might be closer to Lyrics, but fox went 15mm on the 32's so makes sense to make whatever is most 'standard' accross the industry.

Relative to new forks, new hubs are rpetty cheep though, and most are addaptable down to 15mm.

One point of view is this: If you are a bike manufacturer, there is significant competition in the market, and one of the biggest companies(Specialized) makes a risky move by fully committing to the 29er market, by changing their entire portfolio of bikes.

What better way to put potentially knock a big player out of the market completely, by null and voiding the whole 29er story, by driving the 650 story?

Lets face it, many people will be thinking hard about 29er's, but moving from a 26 to a 29 is a big step. The 650 market could potentially scoop up a big market of riders who recognize the benefits of bigger wheels, but not to the full extend a 29er offers.

I can imagine the conversation in various bike companies;
"we need to generate sales"
"we need another standard, lets sell 27.5 bikes for those who don't want 29ers"
"people won't rush out a buy them, it's only a tiny bit different to what they have"
"Lets make them then"
And here we have it;

It may seem confusing now, but the industry has made the decision for the consumer

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Only on Sid/Reba/Rev's i.e. XC forks, Ok so Rev's might be closer to Lyrics, but fox went 15mm on the 32's so makes sense to make whatever is most 'standard' accross the industry.

Relative to new forks, new hubs are rpetty cheep though, and most are addaptable down to 15mm.

Was the steerers I was talking about, and on Revs.

My perspective is that my wheel size is not to blame for 'poor' riding skills. It is mainly my brain.
Yes, 26" wheels may fall into holes that 27.5/29" would roll better over but in the majority of cases it is never the equipment holding someone back.

[quote=wrecker ]
I will never own a 29er. Just don't like them.
You've ridden them all? 🙂

Seriously - I was equally as sceptical.

Was the steerers I was talking about, and on Revs.

But then most new frames are tapered (or 1.5, or 44mm, etc), and while some people upgrade forks, they must be a smaller number than those buying new for a new build, and that must be many times smaller than the OEM market. And forks seem to have reached a level of reliability where the last as long as frames (and in the case of RS and Fox you can upgrade the internals cost effectively).

Lets face it, many people will be thinking hard about 29er's, but moving from a 26 to a 29 is a big step. The 650 market could potentially scoop up a big market of riders who recognize the benefits of bigger wheels, but not to the full extend a 29er offers.

Naaaa, it's not an upgrade path, there's no benifit to doing it in steps.

Most of the resistance (as shown by this thread) is from people saying they don't want to or can't upgrade their curent bikes. Anyone buying a new bike can make that choice freely and pick the 'best' wheelsize for their needs 9or completely ignore it and get whatever they like regardless of wheelsize). Specialized obviously decided that 29ers were better for the Epic, most people buying Epic's are probably either raceing XC, or looking for that style of bike, therefore would probbaly want the fastest most efficient wheelsize. There's probably a market for 26" epics but spesh decided it was too small to wory about, presumably a decision arrived at by not selling many 26" epics. Othrwise they'd still be selling both.

You've ridden them all?

Seriously - I was equally as sceptical.

I've tried a few and just didn't get on with them. Please don't read that as I think all 29ers are crap; I don't think that at all. I just prefer 26" wheels.

@thisisnotaspoon: Wrecker just stated he does not like 29ers but will give a 650 a go. Spesh have shifted their entire line to 29er, from epics to stumpys. That's a big commitment.

The industry has made the decision to make our bikes obsolete so we buy new ones.

I don't buy the conspiracy theories myself. I'd say it's more driven by fear - as the article says no-one wants to get lumbered with a bunch of frames that are hard to sell.

I could see people buying a 29er or 650 frame sometime and just cobbling along with 26 wheels for a bit before replacing them

Pretty sure that'd be easier with a 650 frame as the BB wouldn't actually be dragging alog in the mud, rather just above it

Anyhow - SSable fatbike frame likely next for me, with a spare set of wheels to take "normal" tyres (I reckon 29ers or 650 would probably fit that
(on-one's vertical dropouts - 👿 )

thebikechain - Member

My perspective is that my wheel size is not to blame for 'poor' riding skills. It is mainly my brain.
Yes, 26" wheels may fall into holes that 27.5/29" would roll better over but in the majority of cases it is never the equipment holding someone back.

It baffles me at times that people seem to get so worked up about wheel size. It's a small improvement, it rolls over stuff better. Bike manufacturers make small improvements all the time, and lots of them mean new standards that don't work with old stuff.

Wheel size seems to bring with it a whole other logic. You hear people who criticise full suss bikes for smoothing out the trail, but champion 29ers because they roll over stuff better. I don't know why it has such a polarising effect - it's just another way of realizing certain benefits, no different to extra travel or lighter or longer or whatever.

It's a small improvement. Won't be enough for me to buy new frame, forks, wheels and tyres for, but it's valid.

Wrecker just stated he does not like 29ers but will give a 650 a go

It baffles me at times that people seem to get so worked up about wheel size. It's a small improvement

Having spoken to a well known Endurance racer whose, done back to back timed and tested laps he's now running 650 on his bikes as they worked out to be the best option for his use.

Yes there's nowt wrong with 26" wheel but they were pretty much chosen arbitrarily, 30 odd years ago some geezer in California had a bunch of 26" rims in his garage and hey presto industry standard. A rigid 29er sounds cool wouldn't mind one, 650 sounds a reasonable middle ground. however the "industry" fully jumping on the 29er bandwagon then a couple years later saying "no no 29 is too big, 650b is where it's at", well for a cynical sod like me it's pretty hard to view that as anything other than just a marketing tool.

What could be happening though is that LBSs are telling manufacturers that stocking tyres, rims, forks and frames in 3 sizes is a headache they don't want to deal with, and that a choice of 3 sizes would also deter new customers. I think manufacturers would listen because they rely on the LBSs to get their product in front of the public.

And if enough people buy into BWAMF, then 26 has gotta go.

But 26 aficionados have nothing to worry about because there will be second hand and remnants slopping about for years, and someone will serve the market if it's big enough too.

Besides which it seems to me that 650b is really just "26 and a bit", so the confirmed 26 riders will probably be happy with it anyway when they try it.

(Personally I'm a 29 convert and don't care either way, but that's not the question here).

"I'd like to show you our new 650b saddle line"

fukken loled

thisisnotaspoon - Member

But then most new frames are tapered (or 1.5, or 44mm, etc), and while some people upgrade forks, they must be a smaller number than those buying new for a new build, and that must be many times smaller than the OEM market. And forks seem to have reached a level of reliability where the last as long as frames (and in the case of RS and Fox you can upgrade the internals cost effectively).

I know. My point was that it is happening, I understand why. My point was that big manufacturers will drop 26" in a similar way, and quite soon, because most new bikes will be 650 or 29.

but in the majority of cases it is never the equipment holding someone back.

what happens when he races on a completely different course next week?

I think he'll have tested it elsewhere too and is in a fairly good position to make a judgement call on what will work best for him for stage racing and Endurance events 😉

It's all just bikes and opinions anyway, what works for him probably wouldn't suit me being 2 ft taller and 5 stone heavier, ride what you like. 😀

Fashion.... Weirdly the 140mm Cham with 26" wheels and 3x9 that i ride is now niche. won't buy a 29" they just look wrong and ugly, and I really don't care to know the pluses/ minuses about them.

The Americans have never really got the LTHT concept, and I understand that's the biggest impact on the sales and marketing of mtbs but as long as I can get bits, that's what I'll ride.

Loco I was half* joking 🙂

*if he [i]did[/i] only test on one course my point still stands 🙂

[quote=nickc ]Fashion.... Weirdly the 140mm Cham with 26" wheels and 3x9 that i ride is now niche. ....

The Americans have never really got the LTHT concept,
🙄

DONK, hence the cover all 😉

I eaten now so have slightly more sense of humour 😉

Incidentally he's using 26" fox forks with the 650 wheels and a low profile tyre which we prepped 😀

nickc - Member
Fashion.... won't buy a 29" they just look wrong and ugly, and I really don't care to know the pluses/ minuses about them

So you make your judgement on 29ers entirely on how they look? Fashion, even?

Don't know what all the fuss is about.
Here's my latest, one old Prophet frame, because they can take a tapered fork and worked with adjustable geometry. Add one 27.5" rear wheel and stick on the front end from my Yelli Screamy (take under 10mins)I now have a FS 140mm front and rear travel bike with a very similar geo to my Yelli (which is a fantastic bike)Short chain stay and slack 67* HA and short wheel base. Ok the BB is a bit high but with the saddle down in trail mode the bike is riding bloody fantastic. Total build £500. Its a keeper.
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

I know. My point was that it is happening, I understand why. My point was that big manufacturers will drop 26" in a similar way, and quite soon, because most new bikes will be 650 or 29.

Except forks/frames are one off items you buy then possibly never replace.

Tyres get replaced every few months, there'll be a market for them for years.

Rims get replaced less often, but then mavic hasn't changed it rim line up since the early 90's so I can't seem them ceasing production of 26" rims anytime soon.

Yes, entirely my point, it's just fashion. Few years ago the bike I rode was mainstream, now it's not. Few years time 29" will be as well, and something else will take over. Might even go full circle back to riser stems and flat bars....

Yes, entirely my point, it's just fashion.

No it's not.

Ok, it's not. It's just amazing co incidence that this time it's wheels. As opposed to oh I dunno..... Handlebars, stems, brakes, numbers of gears, suspension, dropper posts,etc etc etc ad neaseum

What can I say. I rode 26ers for years. I rode a 29er and I liked it and I don't ride 26ers any more.

Fashion has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Great, happy for you. What made you try it? Mag review? friends tell you? Bike shop recommendation? You fancied a new frame/ bike?

You don't have to justify it to me, but at least be honest with yourself

What made you try it? (it = 29ers)

in my case, i was curious, and it made a lot of sense*.

unlike 650b and 15mm axles.

i'm a balding engineer with a beard, there is nothing remotely fashionable about me, or anything i do.

(*really can't see any downsides, but there are a few benefits)

I rode a 29er and I liked it

Same here.

Fashion had nothing to do with it, or marketing. I wasn't even looking for a new bike particularly, there was just an opportunity to try one and it was just so much better (for me and my riding). It (and 650B) are no more a manufacturing conspiracy than suspension, disc brakes or gears. Its progress, you choose to buy into it or not. I couldn't care less about 10 speed as I ride single speed but I'm not bothered that 10 speed might limit my options in the future.

26" was an arbitary choice that became the accepted standard. 29" has demonstrated to the industry that we (mountain bikers) are actually prepared to consider changing to a wheel size that suits our riding, so more options are available as in suspension, brakes etc. Expecting there to be only one wheel size is like expecting everyone to have the same travel fork.

Great, happy for you. What made you try it?

You fancied a new frame/ bike?

Yep,

tried some little wheels, some big wheels, some steel, some carbon,

Steel 29er won. 650b might have I don't know.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

That's like arguing that removing 1kg from a bike is pointless and you may as well take a shit.

Missing the point much? My wheel/tyre combo is already the size of the average 650b wheel/tyre combo, and it makes bugger all difference compared to when I use smaller tyres.

I think that's the key difference between 29er and 650b- users can recreate it with what they already have and go "hmm- bugger all difference, let's not spend a fortune on changing all our wheels, tyres, tubes, forks and bikes".

Which is why if it's going to happen, it'll be stick not carrot.

[url= http://www.shedfire.com/2012/10/03/650b-hub-set/ ]650b hubset[/url]

I think that's the key difference between 29er and 650b- users can recreate it with what they already have and go "hmm- bugger all difference, let's not spend a fortune on changing all our wheels, tyres, tubes, forks and bikes".

Then why not compare the 26" + big tyres to 650b + big tyres? Taking your example one step further, a fat bike has 29" wheels using 26" rims, but you wouldn't try one and write off 29ers.

There's no comparison at all between a fat bike and a 29er, they're too different, so that doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

Great, happy for you. What made you try it? Mag review? friends tell you? Bike shop recommendation? You fancied a new frame/ bike?

You don't have to justify it to me, but at least be honest with yourself

A friend turned up on our regular ride on a 29er, I was curious, I tried it and I liked it. Because of that I booked a demo through a shop, rode it about 60 miles over 3 rides and still liked it. So I bought it.

At no point am I trying to justify it to you. What I am saying though, quite clearly, is that your statement [i]"it's just fashion"[/i] is nonsense.

they do get tetchy some of these folks don't they?

i'm a balding engineer with a beard

ah so it's not just [i]not-fashion[/i], it's actually [i]anti-fashion[/i]

and what could an engineer possibly know about bikes, anyway?

There's no comparison at all between a fat bike and a 29er, they're too different, so that doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

One point of view is this: If you are a bike manufacturer, there is significant competition in the market, and one of the biggest companies(Specialized) makes a risky move by fully committing to the 29er market, by changing their entire portfolio of bikes.

What better way to put potentially knock a big player out of the market completely, by null and voiding the whole 29er story, by driving the 650 story?

I heard that a while ago and there's some sense in it, true or not I have no idea, prob not quite. It would be a gamble on either side though and you'd only take sides if you'd had some riding time on the wheels you were backing and really thought they were an advantage. I mean, slacker bikes are popular so making a load of 72 HA bikes for market advantage and point-of-difference might seem daft, but waiting till a few people saw 'slack' as 'floppy and lifeless' and tightening things up a bit may not be so risky. So I don't think it's about null-voiding 29", just deflating it a little.

For some types of bike maybe I'd rather not have 29" wheels, yet once you've ridden them enough you do think 'there's something nice about a bigger wheel.. but for this, maybe not quite that big..' and there you are.. 650B takes off after 29" wheels opened it all up because the difference was so obvious.

[b][u]Northwind[/u][/b] It's the pissant no-sense compromise-til-most-of-the-benefit's-lost-but-without-removing-the-drawbacks ****'s option. And therefore will probably succeed, like 15mm axles.

I like your style Sir. Succinct and to the point.

[i]What I am saying though, quite clearly, is that your statement "it's just fashion" is nonsense.[/i]

pffft whatever.

I mean, what's the chances of a large bike manufacturer making a bike in their 2012 product range that suits almost to a tee the sort of riding you and your friends finding yourself doing more and more...What an amazing co-incidence... You must be stoked