[Closed] 650b - feel alittle underwhelmed

hang on a minute there think I have the problem, have you seen how many spacers on top of the stem!

Oh and still got the five thanks !!

It's no surprise that 27.5 feels different to 26 - everyone can feel a difference between 29 and 26 (a substantial difference for most) and 27.5 is 40% of the way to 29 from 26.

Hora, the angles with 27.5 and 26 will be identical but the BB will be 12.5mm higher with the same tyres. With 27.5F/26R the bike will be about 4mm higher than 26 and 1 degree slacker.

A bike with longer reach will lower your CoG and a bike with longer front-centre will be less prone to over-rotation around the front contact patch on steep stuff - a bike with lower BB height will have similar benefits. So the Meta v4 in large with 27.5 wheels may have the same reassuring feel as the v4 medium with 26 wheels, whilst being better at rolling and pedalling.

Cheers for that- 4mm higher BB isn't too much and it also helps with pedal strikes whilst giving me a front wheel that will roll over trail easier too combined with a rear wheel that still gives the bike abit of pep. I'll see how the 650b/26'er combo goes.

On your size comment- noted. Theres no going up on size now and tbh the large size's seat tube of 19.5inch would have been too long for me- I like my saddle really low on certain trails. With a dropper collar and rail mount- that'll add another inch ontop of the seat tube already. That on balance, is just too long for me.

As it stands the medium has a hell of a lot more positives (feel for a start) and stability that made me lean towards buying one over another manufacturers brand that would have been ££££££ more.

Afterall how many BOS shock/headset/650b good frames can you buy for just over £800 delivered with 5yr warranty?

Cheers for that- 4mm higher BB isn't too much and it also helps with pedal strikes whilst giving me a front wheel that will roll over trail easier too combined with a rear wheel that still gives the bike abit of pep. I'll see how the 650b/26'er combo goes.

Only occassional strikes. Its not a problem but I probably wouldn't get **** all back on the SS front wheel that I bought whereas I could sell the Hope40T Evo2 for a good return. That is if I decided not to keep 650b or have the option there in the shed for when I fancied it in the future.

Sounds daft when you think about it, 4mm and 12.5mm but then ^^^ apparently 8cm is alot too.

Lots of people rave about 67.5'ers - wont hurt to try it for the apparent benefits (on mtbr forum and here as well). If I don't fancy it I can go 26'er or full 650b and work on the sag/psi in each end to balance the bike.

Your saddle isnt level !!

you could be putting more weight on the front of the bike.

Sorry but 4mm is the difference? 4mm? Not to do the obvious but there a lots of bloke measuring gags, 4mm!
Even 12.5mm/ 1/2 inch is still a very small amount. If our striking on 26" then raising it 4mm probably won't help unless it's in your head.

When you're hitting cranks/pedals on the ground then even 2mm extra clearance can be the difference between a big strike and a crash and getting away with it. It's the gap between pedal and ground that matters, not the total BB height or length of crank. If that gap is only a few mm then 12mm is a HUGE difference.

The only real advice between the incredibly easy piss taking is to set it up 650 and ride it, see how it feels get used to it. If you can't then sell it, won't be the first time but give it a proper go. In the words of somebody it's not about the bike.
Stick the 650b's in it, or even better get somebody to scrape your size labels off the wheels and rubber and swap them over so your are doing it blind then forget everything else think of something else then ride.

Cheers chiefgrooveguru you know your stuff

When you're hitting cranks/pedals on the ground then even 2mm extra clearance can be the difference

I can honestly say I've never noticed 650b wheels feeling bigger and more cumbersome than my old 26" bikes, hell my 650b Foxy has shorter chainstays than my 26" Mojo HD. 29ers do feel very different but in a blind test I'd be hard pushed to tell if I was on a 650b or 26" bike. Just ride, get used to it a little more and it'll all settle down, all this messing around with different sized is messing more with your head than anything else.

This isnt aimed at chiefgrooveguru btw

hora you say that chiefgrooveguru knows his stuff, or is he just saying what you think you want to hear??

Renton he also explained constructively about the benefits of me being on a larger size. My reply:

On your size comment- noted. Theres no going up on size now and tbh the large size's seat tube of 19.5inch would have been too long for me- I like my saddle really low on certain trails. With a dropper collar and rail mount- that'll add another inch ontop of the seat tube already. That on balance, is just too long for me.

So he wasn't saying what I wanted to hear.

so is the collar of you dropper post butted right up to the top of the seat tube at its correct height?

I have just put some really light wheels on my 26. Even though the whole bike is 3lb heavier than my 29 I'm getting PRs all over the place.
Even with the extra roll overability of the 29 I'm still hindered by a low bottom bracket.
My 1999 26er is quicker,comfier and more practical than the laSt 3 "modern" bikes I've owned.
I'm going to be one of those old boys tutting about anything new that comes out. Though 740 bars imbued the 26 with 29 stability so they're alright.

So basically you have a freakish posture and insist on riding bikes that are the wrong size and then try to make them fit, then cast aspersions that the bike designer doesn't know what he was doing, and then come on here and troll to get as many pages of attention hora-ing as you can.

Is that a fair summary?

^^^

Stop selectively reading so you can reinforce a negative post-mentality. I'll point you towards other posters who also say they don't get on with 650b bikes too.

Notice how I posted up that I wasn't too keen on other 650b bikes that I've tried?

Is Jedi wrong?

Be constructive, I don't go on your topics posting negativity do I?

I have just put some really light wheels on my 26. Even though the whole bike is 3lb heavier than my 29 I'm getting PRs all over the place.

Yesterday I got my third-fastest Strava time up a seven-minute climb (which I have ridden loads).

I was riding a 180mm travel 26in bike which weighs north of 35lb.

Only explanation is I was already warmed up nicely with 800m of climbing, compared to hitting it cold normally.

(sorry for the hijack but the main topic isn't really going anywhere now)

Is Jedi wrong?

he is probably right as he has the riding skills to back up his opinions...

🙂

apologies for using "he" in conjunction with "bike designer" - didn't mean to appear to be misogynistic...

Its funny all the 650b negativity has gone from, its a tiny bit bigger wheel and makes no difference to, its a huuge change and ruins everything !

Bottom line is there's good bikes and bad, and there's bikes you like and bikes you don't, and they're not the same thing. I went through a bunch of hardtails to get one I like, but they all had 26 wheels so I can't blame that. If one of them was 650b and I hated it, I guess I might blame the wheels, but since the change in size is so small I reckon it's a much smaller consideration than other factors.

I'm getting on with 650b just fine. I find it's nice improvement on 26. I notice it rolls smoother on faster trails than 26 but doesn't feel noticeably bigger. 29ers that i have ridden roll much smoother but also feel noticeably bigger and a little sluggish on tighter stuff.

Personally I wouldn't buy a new frame/forks/bike just to change from 26 to 650b. If i got on with 29ers I probably would because the positives are more apparent that 26 to 650b but then so are the negatives.

To the OP, I didn't notice much difference at first until I rode my 26 again. Plus there will be some advantages to the rolling resistance over bumps of slightly larger wheels even if you don't notice it. To me thats the appeal. I don't notice the wheels being bigger but know they roll smoother. As Tesco say ' Every little helps'.

Genuine question here Hora

If you had ridden 650b bikes and didn't get on with them, why did you blindly go out and buy a 650b bike that you had not tested?

You have taken all of the pleasure out of owning a new bike, it's rather ridiculous.

Are your forks 42 or 46mm offset?

I believe 26" pikes to be 40mm offset.

I imagine if you're on 46mm offset with 26" wheel, maybe you've stumbled across something you really like?

26" wheel will do the obvious of speeding up the steering be steepening the HA, it will also reduce the "trail", making the steering even more direct, maybe this is what you're liking on the steering aspect of the 26 and not on the 650.

But yea, as everyone else is saying, a good bike is a good bike, that's different for everyone, the wheels aren't really going to be the ONE thing that means you don't like the bike.

Size wise, im 5ft10 and would definitely buy a large if i were to buy one. Too small could be ruining it for you too.

PS, what's this nonsense from others about 29ers on tight stuff not being great, if you can turn, you can turn, i really have no problems getting my 29er through tight stuff.

Be constructive, I don't go on your topics posting negativity do I?

no you dont, but neither are you constructive* - dont give it out if you cant take it! 😆

*please dont make me have to go back through the threads and threads of renton's past to prove it PLEASE 🙁

Scandal42 I had a quick spin on a stw'ers medium before ordering. When mine arrived I fitted 26'er existing wheels and it ripped. Like I've said previously if I'd not fitted 26'ers I'd have never know.

BTW its not new Ive had it 26'd for over 3months.

I was talking to turnerguy not renton. Rentons funny, turnerguys one dimensional.

Forks are 2014/2015 34 Float 160's and are 44 offsets if it helps

Im a serial frame swapper.
I own a V4.
You can buy mine in 2016 or 2017 if you can wait OP?

why not buy that neutral frame that you keep trying to avoid so you have nothing to complain about, and then just work on your riding technique - maybe go see Jedi.

I am not a skillful rider but when I bought my Flux I aimed for a bike where there were virtually no issues I could see, and so when I ride and mess up I know that it is nothing to do with the bike.

(Not quite true when I am following people on slacker and bigger travel bikes and they go down steep stuff that I have more problems on - but thanks to Jedis advice on heels down, etc I manage a fair amount of stuff...)

Same with my tennis and golf - I get the best, most neutral kit I can, and then there are a whole lot less issues I could possibly deal with when assessing why my scores are so high, or I lose so many matches.

Putters then same type Faldo used - if it's good enough for him, etc...

I am waiting to hear why your Ritchey Logic road frame is wrong for you...

Turnerguy get off my topic. I was after constructive discussion and I've indicated I dont want or seek your opinion or advice.

Turnerguy get off my topic. I was after constructive discussion and I've indicated I dont want or seek your opinion or advice.

tough - I made a constructive comment - why don't you buy a neutral bike that fits you and just get on with it?

[img] [/img]

Waiting? As in nothing better to do.

[img] [/img]

That's quite a lot of bike for the mincecore riding that you do

What's the upshot then? You just gonna stick with 26" wheels?

Mud clearance should be excellent anyway.

Going to run it 67.5'er tomorrow then take it from there. If Im unsure I'll run bigger Schwalbes front and rear on 26'ers.

Dirtyrider, no idea. I ride within my capabilities that way I avoid injuries but Im still quicker than some and I ride tech. Thats a great compromise for me. It means I'll be strong enough to future-proof myself for years of riding and active physical stuff.

STW's most infamous purchaser of the wrong sized bike, purchases wrong size bike again and then blames it on the wheels which are an inch bigger and make bugger all difference for 99% of riders.

STW wouldn't be the same without you Hora.

Have a read what the guys at Liteville say on the subject of 26/27,5 mixed format. Makes sense to me.

http://www.liteville.de/t/25_579.html

Kudos100 you missed the bit where I said I felt underwhelmeb on other 650b's..

Regardless of what some bike journos say or preach they dont know everything.

I'll have have a read welshfarmer

Always keen to learn

welshfarmer - Member
Have a read what the guys at Liteville say on the subject of 26/27,5 mixed format. Makes sense to me.
> http://www.liteville.de/t/25_579.html
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That was really good cheers.

I got a 650b hardtail a month ago. The wheels felt a bit unwieldy to me to start with, but after 8 or 9 rides, I'm getting used to it and really like it. Rode my 26 a couple of days ago and it felt really small and twiddley!

I don't know anyone who has switched to 650b who hasnt got on with it and preferred it to the 26"
not journos, in fact a lot of riders rave about the size.

but then some people always blame their bikes, when the really good riders just get on with what they have.

Let us know how you get on with 67.5er wheels....

Hope Cross, Beast, Gores, Fairholmes, cheeky, cheeky. Hope today.

Can I just come back to this comment quickly:

I'm 3inches over the manufacturers recommended guidelines.

Look at that on a ruler and contrast it with your overall height?

So I'm 8cm's taller or 4% over their guidelines. Is that insurmountable?

It's not your overall height that you need to be comparing it with, but the difference between the smallest person Commencal thinks their bikes fit and the largest person.

[url= http://www.commencal-bikes.de/downloads/sizing_chart.pdf ]Sizing chart is here[/url]. XS is recommended for people of 5' upwards. XL suggested at 6'2" upwards.

So the range is more like, say, 15", covering 4 sizes. Your 3' accounts for c.20% of the range.

That's not to say it necessarily matters, but it's the same point with height really as with ground clearance - it's relative rather than absolute. I've had a long agonise about this before getting a Large Transition Scout on order. At 5'10"ish, I'm in the M/L overlap. Sized up after a bit of thought.

🙂

Have a read what the guys at Liteville say on the subject of 26/27,5 mixed format. Makes sense to me.

http://www.liteville.de/t/25_579.html

That was really interesting. It does actually make sense. I'm tempted to experiment and try it.

Hora - I can't add much more to this debate other than i've recently just gone to 27.5. I hated it initially. It's taken me half a dozen decent rides to get used to it, but now I have I love it. I wouldn't go back to 26. So, just stick with it, it will definitely click eventually.

I was talking to turnerguy not renton. Rentons funny, turnerguys one dimensional.

FWIW 650b to me, i can tell a small difference but changing from 1 bike to another is a bigger change. I just adapt me to the bike, personal prefs aside eg saddle grips etc

I ride tech.

Getting that on a t-shirt.

I was reading this http://normallyaspiratedhuman.com/?p=1528 and there was this phrase in the middle of it: "[i]Choice is often a curse. Those with no choice are free of the burden of endless procrastination and can simply get on and do what is necessary.[/i]"

I've one MTB. Is it perfect for everything? [b]No[/b]. Is it perfect for anything? [b]No[/b]. Can I make it perfect for anything? [b]No[/b]. Is it good enough for what I want? [b]Yes, by a long, long way[/b]

I got a 650b hardtail a month ago. The wheels felt a bit unwieldy to me to start with, but after 8 or 9 rides, I'm getting used to it and really like it. Rode my 26 a couple of days ago and it felt really small and twiddley!

Rode my 26 a couple of days ago and it felt [s]really small and twiddley![/s] fun and lively!

FTFY.. 😀

Ok we did a rock (Beast), fast (Gores/Lockerbrook) and steep steep switchbacks and at no point did I grumble. I was using a borrowed Reverb and noted I fitted/placed the saddle on the rails almost perfect whereas previously I'd constantly adjusted (that could be something else) but also on any fireroad/trail I could pedal no handed or coast and the bike was rock solid. I could feel the loose/two spokes in the rear though (more pressure on the rear/rear wheel?), it didnt feel chopperish at all and on steep climbs (slabs climb to Whinstone lee tor) I'd hop off anyway on any bike.

As Tom mentioned earlier I felt some low speed 'flop' which irritated me initially but became a strength. It cornered better than full 650b but still felt great to pop off things. I need to drop the fork psi alot more though

Pics to follow, hopefully an action one too. Im keeping 650b/26 for now.

As with other comments on 67.5'ers from here/mtbr etc I can echo it marrys two positives of both wheelsets for trail riding

What part does fork offset play? I also have some 40mm 160 Mazz forks that could play with

"Choice is often a curse. Those with no choice are free of the burden of endless procrastination and can simply get on and do what is necessary."

I've one MTB. Is it perfect for everything? No. Is it perfect for anything? No. Can I make it perfect for anything? No. Is it good enough for what I want? Yes, by a long, long way

Yep, for the best part of 12 months i had a medium/long travel HT while we consolidated funds to buy a house, it was great....going out for a ride meant checking the tyres and nothing else....no fretting over which bike to take, no having to avoid one bike because its due a service or some work needs doing...i used that bike for everything from uplift days to XC pootling and didnt worry about it once, even entered some races on it.

Now i have a full-suss built up (Giant Trance) and i'm eyeing up either a short travel 29er (thinking Orange Segment but open minded) or full on DH bike project as my next one with the aim to have both by the end of the year giving me:

a 26er HT playbike
a 27.5 Trail/enduro race FS
a 26/27.5 DH rig
a 29er Trail/XC FS

....and having choice is causing me no end of stress as i hunt for overtime shifts at work, spend far too long researching sites like CRC and pricing everything up, watching videos of the bikes i have in mind, scouring mags for reviews etc etc....i find i'm actually riding less and the recent thread on here about people going to a HT and regretting it or not did get me thinking about ditching the others and just going back to something like a Cotic Soul and doing everything on the one bike.

Stuff does not make you happy, cycling does, all stuff does is give you short term satisfaction and take up room.

I only have one mountain bike for everything ,well actually thats not technically true, I have 2, but the second is only a spare bike for when the first is broken and is very similar in ethos/style to the first.

If I had more than one style/type of mountain bike, regardless of which bike I was riding at the time , I'd always be wishing I was on the other bike at some point in a ride.

I like both my 650b bike AND my 26 😀

I'm not really qualified to comment on the pros and cons of 650b, being such an average rider and probably wouldn't know the difference, after a 650b trail bike purchase, all i can say is that out on the trails the bike feels awesome, i am sure it out rides my previous bike, the emperors new clothes maybe, but it feels better, in fact i'm riding so well now, i might even enter the EWS 😉

What part does fork offset play? I also have some 40mm 160 Mazz forks that could play with

How much would you pay for some 46mm offset solo air pikes - from a Giant Reign? I will probably end up selling them for some Fox 36s at some point. I believe Mattocs are 42 or 44mm offset and the new x-fusion closed cartridge damper forks are 46mm offset as well.

All of these means the steering will sharpen up a bit and be less floppy!

I actually think 650b/26 sounds like a great idea, a bit more rollover and comfort where it matters...a small wheel for easier manuals and faster acceleration at the rear. If you have a spare 26 inch wheel lying about - why not!

The 46mm pikes would make the handling heavier/slacker?

A lower offset on a slack HA would counter the HA somewhat? Sharpen the steering? Or is it vice versa

No, believe it or not increasing the offset speeds up steering. This is why 29er forks have 51mm offsets.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/To-the-Point-Wheel-Diameter-VS-Fork-Offset.html

Happy to help out Hora if you have any other questions, I know what its like to be a little OCD. 😛

Lets get this right.

Trail is the the distance between the tyre contact patch and projected steering axis to the ground, it is a result of the steering axis not being vertical (HA).

Imagine zero rake, the steering axis will intersect the ground in front of the point in which the wheel contacts the ground.

When you add rake, you bring the contact point of the wheel forward in relation to the steering axis, shortening trail.

No rake = more trail = more stability at high speed (flop (instability) at low speed)

Rake = less trail = less stability and high speed (less flop more (stability) at low speed)

Make sense?

Haven't read the PB link above, but anticipate explanations of the difference in trail, different wheel sizes produce, hence why different wheel sizes can have different HAs and offsets, but end up with same trail, hence similar steering.

http://m.pinkbike.com/news/liteville-601-mk-2-review-2015.html

Some more interesting reading about different wheel sizes on the same frame

If it helps I just rode a 650b bronson C back to back with my 26" Bandit.

The bronson felt really high and unwieldy compared to my bandit. I'm sure I could get used to it but I was happy to get back on the bandit.

Thats how I felt on the M and L that I rode as mentioned earlier. Rolled really well though

Tbh I want to feel the trail not find it easier.

jam bo - Member
If it helps I just rode a 650b bronson C back to back with my 26" Bandit.

The bronson felt really high and unwieldy compared to my bandit. I'm sure I could get used to it but I was happy to get back on the bandit.

Not surprising BB height on a bandit is 335 the new 26 Surpressor is 339 and the the Bronson c is 346. Transition have always been fairly low bikes....

Can someone summarize the 7 pages for me in a few lines please?

rickon - Member
Can someone summarize the 7 pages for me in a few lines please?

Bike for sale.

OK, can someone summarize the last 7 pages in a Haiku?

rickon - Member
Can someone summarize the 7 pages for me in a few lines please?

OK, can someone summarize the last 7 pages in a Haiku?

Hora buys a bike
It is not to his liking
Hora sells a bike

OK, can someone summarize the last 7 pages in a Haiku?

IGMC

Loving the measurement brigade out all over this one still, now it's fork offset 🙂

I think OCD is the right term. All men (and women) need a hobby to keep them involved and sane outside of work. Some are happy to just ride, or fish or drive etc. Others are inquisitive and need to stick their nose in and its good to understand your hobby more..

Heres yesterdays shot. On the bike I think its difficult to spot the wheelsize difference?

[img] [/img]

I don't subscribe to 'ride 10times and you'll forget about the old wheelsize'. That means you are having to adapt to something that is different to what you particularly like. You are being forced to adapt what makes you work/your skill to something else. bigger wheels would work on some trails- if I lived in the South Downs etc I wouldn't look back from a 650b swap but where you ride the bike in lots of different types of trails?

I must say I'm really glad I took the day off yesterday. I felt nicely tired post-ride but I also wanted to ride again in the evening 😀

All men (and women) need a hobby to keep them involved and sane outside of work.

I love the way you consistently project your own beliefs onto everyone else in the world - I find it helps when reading Hora-speak to simply substitute the word 'Hora' for 'all men/people/women/everyone/you/other forum member' and similar Horalisations...

I like a slack bike (I'd have kept the 26 inch wheels in there and run 2.35 Mary's front and rear) but that looks weird now, like a dog dragging its arse, everything is tilted backwards too much for my liking, what does it climb like because on pics alone it looks like it'd be a pig to get uphill?

Bloody hell Hora!....check your front tyre down at the 'tactic' logo where it meets with the ground in your photo....looks like the tyre is partially off the rim?!?!....I know Tactics are a bugger to get a tyre on but that's ridiculous.

i have just bought two new 26 frames. to replace my small bandit and medium bottlerocket. loving the saracen 16x 🙂

Loved my 26 inch Ariel, thieving bastards put paid to that though!

Hora, why not swap to a V3? Buy some 160mm lyriks, stick a spacer in the shock and away you go in 26 inch bliss.