[Closed] 650b - feel alittle underwhelmed

I'm not sure then mate to be honest.

I can sympathize with you though. Sounds like you are having issues like I was with the trance.

2.35 Hans Dampf v 2.4 HR II

[url] https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/30625376@N06/18903343538/sizes/o/ [/url]

Something odd with that picture.

Look at the difference in height between the rim at the bottom compared with the smaller height difference at the top of the tyre

Google difference [img] [/img]

If you cant feel that.... Wow

Nothing wrong with the image, just the 26" wheel is sitting in front of the 650b/27.5" and the picture is taken at an angle...so the 26" looks to be lower...

Well yes, it looks a bit different but the important bit is the difference in radius, not diameter...

584 - 559 / 2...

So 12.5mm, half am inch (assuming like for like tyres and fork, unlike the pic above)...

You,ll easily find more varied BB heights between stock bikes based on geometry or adding more/less fork travel... It's not that massive a drop really.

shame you cant put them nose into the wall side by side to get a comparison that way.

I didnt notice much difference if any going from 26 to 650b

It sounds like yet another one of those bikes where Hora knows better than the bike designer.

Have you considered a career change ?

Ah yes the 5spot that I felt was awkward. Turner coincidently made changes for the next year that funnily enough improved it?

TurnerGuy - Member
It sounds like yet another one of those bikes where Hora knows better than the bike designer.
Have you considered a career change ?

To be fair to Hora what he says is correct, putting 26 inch wheels in a 660b frame makes for a bike that sits lower and rails the corners....but in everyday use you would clatter the pedals a lot and technical climbs would be a bloody nightmare....designers know this and have to compromise between having a low stable bike and incorporating the ability to actually pedal it around too, so we have BB heights like we currently do for the bike to be an all-rounder...if Hora is happy with his bike being very biased towards cornering and descending then I say leave the small wheels in there.

There is also excellent tyre and mud clearance using 26 inch wheels in a 650b chassis.

Hora, have you done any rough stuff, technical climbing with the 26 inch wheels in there?...did you get many pedal strikes?

As per my reply earlier, if you want to persevere with 650b but miss the lower stance of the 26 inch wheels I'd run more sag at the back and put an angleset in the front to slacken things further at that end....both combined will lower the BB by maybe enough to get back to the feeling you enjoyed with small wheels.

Surprised- dont/didnt think it'd work but Ive just done a 67'5'er it and its not like a chopper. Infact it feels level/better.

Trail spin tomorrow.

As for bike designers, how many bikes have you ridden and though 'meh', dull, shit or needed changes to suit your taste. If every bike you've ridden has been great as bike designers know better or know the trails that youll ride it on, chapeau.

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If you cant feel that.... Wow
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I r ode a lovely Saracen Kili Flyer a little while ago - if I had somehow been blind to the fact the wheels were 650b there's no way I would've known they were different to the wheels I've been riding for the past 20odd years.

You can feel the difference between tyres- different brands, grip and rolling resistance though?

Maybe some designers know the wheelsize versus balance of angles subtly better though.

Would you feel the difference between a 1.8 tyre and a 2.4 tyre???

I wouldnt?

On the front yes!

You need 650b-

Would you feel the difference between a 1.8 tyre and a 2.4 tyre???
I wouldnt?

Seriously?!

On the front definitely, I like the widest tyre I can get on the front for grip and can feel when I've gone below 2.2 never mind to 1.8!

On the rear I'd probably notice in terms of drag/rolling resistance if not actual grip....I ride a HT most of the time so the back tends to ping around all over the place doing its own thing!.....I find a HT is all about riding the fork and having as little weight as possible on the rigid back end....tyre choice is crucial to have the confidence to do that.

Sorry I meant height wise!!

Deviant I had plenty of pedal strikes but the offshoot was stable. I'll run the 67.5'er first. Worse case I'll run the forks lower (160mm Float 34 650b's) and an angleset

whats the point of having all the travel though if you are going to run it all as sag. next you will be saying the suspension is to soft???

Go faster. wheels will soon feel alive. Braaaappp

Pretty sure last year's mega was won by a 27.5 Commencal with 26" wheels fitted. So hora might be onto something!!! But it was so bloody muddy that clearance was everything.

I've got an angle measure app downloaded so will see what the 67.5'er comes out at.

The Mega 26'er- partly down to rider preference?

Hora has just invented a new niche, the 27.5er minus (aka 650b- ).

Truly he is a marketing genius. Better copyright it now. 🙂

is it worth mentioning that Maxxis tyre “widths” vary enormously ?

[img] [/img]
Blur LTc's
Left 650b 160mm fork right 26" 150mm fork

Consiering the new Meta is meant to be a really, really good bike (with 650b wheels) have you considered the issue (dare I say it) be you?

I and everyone I know who went from 26 to 650b took about 30 seconds of riding round a carpark before it was decided we couldn't really notice a difference with the wheelsize and just got on with riding.

Maybe you bought a bike that's too small for you? 😉

have you considered the issue (dare I say it) be you?

How very [i]dare[/i] you! Someone with obviously little bike-feel?! Pwned, oh yes.

😉

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I'm not sure how accurate the angle finder app is but measured on the stanchion(?) 65degrees, HT 61? and seat tube 71. It does not feel slack though - just more seated 'in' again.

Maybe its the camera angle but the 650b Hans Dampf front doesn't look that much bigger than the 26'er Ardent rear?

Are we back with the 26" rear wheel in that ^^^ picture?

Why isn't there a standard for mtb tyre sizes like there is in motorbikes, cars, tractors... in fact, pretty much anything that uses tyres?

The variation in widths and aspect ratio of mtb tyres between manufacturers and between products within a manufacturers range is ridiculous. It makes a mockery of the idea that the 12.5mm difference in rim sizes makes any real difference in performance.

Tyre manufactures, sort your shit out.

Are we back with the 26" rear wheel in that ^^^ picture?

Yup

Maybe you bought a bike that's too small for you?

I'm not sure how accurate the angle finder app is but measured on the stanchion(?) 65degrees, HT 61? and seat tube 71.

Looks great Hora, if you like the way it rides with that combo then go for it!

No dropper post? I'm thinking of ditching mine as well.

Do the full set with the 26, 26/650 & 650 combinations. Be interested in what the angle & BB height change actually is

Good point- the 26'er front is built up so its simply a swap in. will do tonight.

I broke my dropper and I sorely missed it on Mondays night ride for all the ups and downs 🙁 - ones on the way and the post above is at its absolute max stretch.

What happened to the KS?

Snapped at the top bolt/clamp area- all in it'd cost £100 (inc service) to get it up and running again but its a underseat dropper. The new supernatural remote KS is only £148 so...

Really Hora as well, it takes time to gel with a bike. Spend some time playing with front and rear sag values.

Lovely looking bike, think I'd have bought one if I hadn't gone with a Reign.

To be honest hora that looks bloody ace. If it climbs and handles OK I wouldn't give a toss what size wheels were on it.

There is/can be a difference in wheel size performance.
Recently i took two bikes to bike park wales, exactly the same, but different wheel sizes, mega am 26"and mega am 650b, so very similar bikes.
In the morning i rode the 26" mega, and according to my riding mate i was riding the best i had for a long time, in the afternoon i changed to the 650b. I was rubbish, couldnt turn as quick, berms i kept running wide, slower to react, slower around the twisties.
My riding mate who i ride with 3 times a week at least, couldnt believe the difference,so i went back on the 26er, and became a riding god again, so it wasnt due to tiredness.
This isnt a definitive analysis, but it was a more valid comparison test than most people usually get to take.

i went back on the 26er, and became a riding god again

You don't say which you usually ride. I'm assuming 26er?

Recently i took two bikes to bike park wales, exactly the same, but different wheel sizes, mega am 26"and mega am 650b, so very similar bikes.

edit - same frame & fork different wheels then one size the bike wasn't designed around
same name 26/650 version - different bikes

For the last month i have been riding the 26er, for the previous 6 months i was riding mega tr 650b,
im going to chamonix soon and have trying to choose whether to take 26 or 650b, i have decided on the 26er

Mega am 650b was stock, with pikes, so equipment was matched to design.
26 er had marzocchi 55s 170 front travel, so maybe the bike with the "wrong" forks should have been worse?
maybe its not directly comparative because of the geometry, but it was still 650b vs 26.
if you choose a 650b and a 26 which have same geometry
( are they out there?)then why bother buying a 650b, i think the test was a reasonable, especially seeing as i had been riding 650b recently for more hours than 26.
i think the main thing was that even though im not a great rider, i could actually tell the difference and it showed

my real point is you are comparing 2 bikes not just wheel sizes, those that went from Blur LT's to Bronsoons all seem really happy and plenty of people really happy with 650 bikes so wheel size can't be the only factor there.

The 650b and 26 inch Mega are so close they may as well be the same bike. The only thing they did was drop the BB height.

I can sure as hell tell a difference, but I'm as fast on 650b as I am on 26 so I don't care either way. 650B bikes all feel like they have to be more aggressively pushed/dropped into a corner, they also do feel marginally smoother over the rough stuff.

Some people are just more sensitive than others, otherwise we'd still be running around on 69 degree head angled bikes. It's the sensitive riders who can't ride any old bike that drive development, where as some people can ride any old bike really really fast - the sport wouldn't progress with those people though.

I do agree that the differences are pretty marginal though.

Absolutely no offence to the old Blur LT's but I rode mates LT and mine (26'er'ed) back to back and mine felt solid/dependable(?)- his feels weedier(?) and abit skittish?

If had not ridden mine and I'd just ridden his I'd have been happy on a old LT. Infact I rode his a year+ previously and it felt ace compared to my old Orange Patriot on a descent.

So going from a LT to a modern day Bronson- I can see why owners would be happy/ier.

I do agree that the differences are pretty marginal though.

but its those mariginal differences that you make you 'click'. That suddenly make you feel at ease and comfortable on descents?

Maybe you bought a bike that's too small for you?

A large or XL wouldn't stop the wanderlust in a modern day mountain biker. If you followed all the manufacturers recommended guidelines and listened to everything the UK mag reviews tell you - where would you be? You'd feel assured that they know you, they know the riding you do and they have absolutely no agenda... I've found my own personal preference is I like bikes that are a bit smaller and lower. With cars- I like them abit quirky. If I bought a large frame that was neutral- fast on fast straight stuff and drove a Ford Focus I'd probably die of boredom. With tinkering it helps you understand abit more. Maybe after all this I'll run the 650b wheelset again together - but with a different rear tyre choice. I'll see how I go with the 67.5'er set up first though.

Sounds like a "yes" to me.

Sounds like a "yes" to me.

but its those mariginal differences that you make you 'click'. That suddenly make you feel at ease and comfortable on descents?

Totally, I'm with you here. You get used to a certain bike, you develop a style of riding that works for you and then you swing a leg over a bike that doesn't work how you want it to. There have been a few bikes I've really clicked with in the past, a custom geometry Ancilotti downhill bike when my brother was racing the NPS series and recently my Giant Reign. Tiny differences really - a bikes a bike - (I think the Reign is....50mm longer, 15mm lower and 1 degree slacker than my old mega) but I started riding like a **** again after swinging a leg over the Giant. First time in years since I had to regain my sense of balance since ending up in a neuro ward! It's a 650b though! 😛

I think 650b agrees with me as my biggest issue up until recently was my fore and aft balance as opposed to my lateral balance, it's very hard to describe.

Some of it is suspension setup, what works for one bike might not work for another. Let's say you've gone for a slacker, longer bike with a shorter stem. Your weight is going to be more centred, you're going to have to increase the rear PSI a little and drop it in the front in comparison to previous setups - to stop the front end from pushing out in corners.

A full sussers geometry is dynamic - suspension isn't just there to erase bumps, it's there to control geometry in corners. So many people forget this or don't realise it because they haven't had any interaction with motorsports where this is widely understood.

Sounds like a "yes" to me.

no. I'm more than happy with the cockpit/feel. A XL or L wouldn't have a low(er) BB- something I do like. TBH it feels like a modern day Blur4x- it makes me feel a better rider than what I am. I like that.

TBH I was struggling to understand your reply to hobnob and thought it must be a bit of obfuscation. I'm totally in agreement about not taking manufacturers' size recommendations as gospel as it happens.

But I have it in my mind from one of your previous bike posts that you're about 6ft, is that right? And you're on a medium?

@ mike, im sure a lot of people who went 650b are happier, just as people who stayed 26 are happier. i think if you find a bike that suits you and your riding then you have had a result.
the 650b was definitely not as manoeuvereable as the 26er in the twisties, can carry my speed and nearly keep up with mates on the 26er but i get dropped at the twisties on the 650b.
@Tom, i might be one of those people who cant ride any old bike, ive had quite a few, my favourite being ibis mojo hd which fitted me perfectly.
i think its more about what your skill level can do on a bike when you get pushed, and i find im better on the 26er,
and as Hora says, i was underwhelmed by 650b and even more underwhelmed by 29ers

The Ibis mojo HD was a pretty steep, stiffly suspended bike was it not? Drop your PSI at the front, if it dives a bit too much add a bit more LSC Lester. Raise the rear PSI a little. Maybe drop a bit of psi in the front tyre as well.

You might be running two fast a rebound setup at the front as well.

New bikes require new suspension setups. If you're lucky, you get it right the first time like I did with the Reign.

chakaping I'm 3inches over the manufacturers recommended guidelines.

Look at that on a ruler and contrast it with your overall height?

So I'm 8cm's taller or 4% over their guidelines. Is that insurmountable?

The final decision should be on the riders feel, their actual preference.

Manufacturers guidelines are balls. I'm in between a medium Reign or a large as I'm 5 11 and a bit (182cm..can't quite say 6 foot). Gone for a large, best thing I ever did.

Long top tubes, short stems (30mm or less) really are where it's at. You have to drive the bike more, but my god, when you point them down steep sections, over rocks, over drops, over jumps....they hoon. To someone who grew up riding mtbs since the age of 5-6, during the 90's with elastomer sprung, v-braked pieces of shit - it's almost like cheating. Even compared to a lot of the 2005ish downhill bikes it's like cheating. People have no idea how good some of the current bikes are.

It's been a long long time since I didn't feel like worrying about trail features and just took the racing line everywhere. Did I say again how much I'm looking forward to when my Reign gets here? 🙂 It's like playing a ****ing computer game.

the 650b [b]MEGA[/b] was definitely not as manoeuvereable as the 26er [b]MEGA[/b] in the twisties,

there is so much more about frame design and a bike than one or 2 numbers if that be wheels or HA. Some of the dismissive 650 this 26 that is specific to the experience on one or 2 bikes.

I agree Tom.

I'll measure the bike in 26-26 mode tonight and report back on the angles.

At the moment:
Commencal's measurements from their website: are 66degrees head angle and 74degrees seat angle.

With my 650b/26 its 65 degrees and 71 degrees (although it doesn't feel 71 as I've raised the post/tilted and moved the saddle).

Hora if you go for a smaller bike than is ideal then you are never going to be able to feel in the bike rather than on the bike.

Post a pic up of you on the bike to see what it looks like.

Renton - a longer top tube and longer seat tube can make you feel stretched out and higher up. Theres more to it than that. Sag, angles, design etc.

I'd love it if some bike designers could say from their perspective. Don't forget Bike designers have to design a bike to be sold to as many people as possible- not to their own personal preferences, or maybe what they'd really like to see/do? (thats a question).

Don't worry about the head angle. Slacker is better anyway, sure it will be a bit floppier at lower speeds but that will just encourage you to go faster. 😛 Bikes that are fun to ride at slow speed, keep you riding slowly.

True Hora, but that's what 30mm stems and risers are for 😛 I've gone from a 417mm reach to 460, even with a 50mm stem I didn't feel stretched out. Just feels a bit like a motocross bike now. I reckon a 500mm reach would feel fine.

In certain cases yes but with a longer seat tube your sestpost will be slightly lower that's all.

With top tube length yes it can stretch you out of you use a long stem but newer bikes are designed to run shorter stems. Look at the new bird aeris as an example.

Renton - a longer top tube and longer seat tube can make you feel stretched out and higher up. Theres more to it than that. Sag, angles, design etc.

Most bikes run such short seat tubes now for a given 'size' that point is fairly irrelevant. A large seems to only be 18/19" now for the newer breed of geometry bikes, as people want more standover to run a bigger drop on a seat post.

TT length, also a largely irrelevant number, as it's manipulated hugely by ST angle, which can make a long bike on paper appear quite short up top.

Focus more on reach & stack. I prefer to ride something on paper that's considered in the right sort of size for me, you are taller than me & ride a smaller bike, I think that's some of the issue, shorter wheelbase makes you feel perched on the bike rather than a more between the wheels feeling.

FWIW, large Reign, 50mm stem & 800mm bars.

I think I mentioned this in another topic but looking at the numbers, that's a little bike for a big guy. No wonder it feels weird to ride. Maybe the smaller wheels slightly normalised it by putting you slightly closer to the ground and putting on the right sized wheels has tipped it over the edge, so to speak.

In a non confrontational way, have you actually ridden a newer designed bike sized roughly in line with your height? You made reference to only being 3" above the recommended height for that size, but that's the recommended upper limit, if you take the average, you're half a foot too tall for it.

I still maintain the biggest part of the issue is your bike is (quite a bit) too small for you.

"the 650b MEGA was definitely not as manoeuverable as the 26er MEGA in the twisties"
thanks for fify,
you are right of course. i thought that the two different size megas was a good comparison, maybe they arent.
can anyone suggest a better pairing of 26 and 650b to compare, that are possibly a closer pair of bikes except for wheel size.
with the amount of different geometries, and suspension setups etc, im not sure why anyone should swap the current bike they are happy with for another wheel size, as they will be very lucky to find a bike that fits perfectly.

Hob nob - I understand where you are coming from- I've also had a go on a medium and a large Bronson. On both I 'felt' the wheels - its really hard to describe -'loapy', gangly, ungainly even?. I've been told this 'feeling'/where you are conscious of the wheel feel goes away quite quickly- I had the same feeling on my 650b'd V4- it hasn't/didn't go away. Maybe with time I'll get used to it.

In addition- if I was on too small a bike - why did I take a longer stem off and refit a 55mm stem? My V4 has a long wheelbase and I don't feel cramped in the cockpit.

Out of interest - how do you calculate reach & stack? I'd be interested to see what these figures tell me and if I'm out (and a freak) or if I'm there or thereabouts. Not as thoguh I'm looking for vindication- more out of interest, I actually like the figures/working things out and learning more 😀

Edit. This looks good to use: http://bikegeo.muha.cc/

I'll have a go this evening when we are back from BMX.

can anyone suggest a better pairing of 26 and 650b to compare, that are possibly a closer pair of bikes except for wheel size.

It's at the point where wheel size is irrelevant to me, I ride the bike if it's good it's good, if it's not it's not. There were enough 26" bikes that were not that good to make a lot of comparisons that use wheel size to be a bit pointless. Unless you want to do the whole it's better/worse because of the wheels things.

Hob nob - I understand where you are coming from- I've also had a go on a medium and a large Bronson. On both I 'felt' the wheels - its really hard to describe -'loapy', gangly, ungainly even?. I've been told this 'feeling'/where you are conscious of the wheel feel goes away quite quickly- I had the same feeling on my 650b'd V4- it hasn't/didn't go away. Maybe with time I'll get used to it.

That might just be a characteristic of that bike to be fair, I rode a Bronson and felt very on top of it, my wife was the same, and she really, really wanted to like/buy one, but the demo put her right off it. But, some people like that feeling. Also the Bronson is a small bike (reach), given it's official sizing (S/M/L/etc) so not really a great basis for comparison.

Regarding the stem - I personally wouldn't try to use a stem to make a bike fit, either way, too long makes that kind of bike behave strange in a different way.

R & S - have a Google, it's the relationship between BB & HT in both distance and height. Your link shows it in a picture. When I stated your bike looked small, I didn't even look at the TT (or ST) length, I just went off the reach, which for your height, is very short, which pushes you into a more upright position on the bike, much like a shorter wheelbase.

I do think the same bike in a large would solve a lot of the issues you are experiencing. The large Meta isn't huge either, so it's not going to turn into a long old supertanker, which can be a downside of some of these longer bikes.

How tall are you hora and did the bike come with those forks ?

Best thread in ages. Renton and Hora swapping advice on how to set up/fit a bike properly. Utter gold...

[img] [/img]

I've learnt my lesson.

Even I know when a bike is to small

Hora - have you tried putting a 29er wheel in the front and a 24 incher in the back? If it's that good now, imagine what it will be like turned up to 11.

Also, make sure to mount your shifter to your stem - you know, like you used to do.

Rentons consistently trying to return fire from previous threads.

Its not advice- its consistent 'too small'. Then after repeated posts about my height and references to it...

He asks 'how tall are you'

Renton. I'll still have the frame, what are you on [i]currently[/i]? 😉

It's no surprise that 27.5 feels different to 26 - everyone can feel a difference between 29 and 26 (a substantial difference for most) and 27.5 is 40% of the way to 29 from 26.

Hora, the angles with 27.5 and 26 will be identical but the BB will be 12.5mm higher with the same tyres. With 27.5F/26R the bike will be about 4mm higher than 26 and 1 degree slacker.

A bike with longer reach will lower your CoG and a bike with longer front-centre will be less prone to over-rotation around the front contact patch on steep stuff - a bike with lower BB height will have similar benefits. So the Meta v4 in large with 27.5 wheels may have the same reassuring feel as the v4 medium with 26 wheels, whilst being better at rolling and pedalling.

Bigger wheels do require you to attack corners a bit more - but you get more grip in return.

No hora I'm trying to get you to see that like everyone else on here that I think the bike is to small for you.

Did the bike come with those forks or am I right in thinking you have put them on and they are longer travel than previous forks.

I was going to take that pic of Hora's bike and potato-chop some crazy over-sized wheels into it as a mock suggestion of what he should do. However, I don't have potatochop on my works PC and frankly, even if I did I doubt I'd have the attention span to do it without getting bored/distracted/hungry.

So just imagine that I did it and laugh at Hora's expense.

Is there a current record for the Hora Love to Hate to Classified relationship? Do we measure in miles or days?

Anyway more seriously I got faster every ride on the 29r and same with the Blur Lt, just takes time to get into it.

[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Vr-5tq8X9ege2mfqtz55yPDqdLlboa1svruS2wzZEfU=w1407-h1055-no [/img]