I have a suspicion, though, that if we canvassed opinion of London residents, shopkeepers and workers that they would vote to ban bicycles from London streets, not HGVs...
Rachel
as crazy legs has already said don't fall into that trap. I drive, you probably drive, next time you hear about a driver doing 140 down the motorway or driving 20 times the legal limit you wont think "that utter bastard giving us honest drivers a bad name", it's not a diver or a cyclist or whoever giving a everyone else in the subset a bad name, it's just someone being a colossal dick, end of.It's not just cycling numpties in london who give us a bad name.
@amedias: many thanks for explaining it better than I did!
Unfortunately in some colossal dick drivers minds all cyclists are lumped in together. I'd rather be disassociated with the colossal dick and/or suicidal numpty cyclists
Perhaps if more money was spent on enforcement of road trrafic laws with all the fines going into the enforcement pot and lots of advertising on radio and billboards adviisng that strict enforcemet will be taking place, Just then perhaps will casualties go down, and cycling will be seen for what it is, intresting, green commuting,a great exercise and environmmnetlay freindly.
I'm pretty sure you're correct, police forces get told to ignore drivers and concentrate on cyclists. The public have this illogical fear of things. Rabid immigrants, lizard overlords, paedos in the park etc etc. The stuff that is more harmful to them and theirs is the everyday, motor traffic, household accidents but ask what they are worried about and it's some daily mail fantasy headline.I have a suspicion, though, that if we canvassed opinion of London residents, shopkeepers and workers that they would vote to ban bicycles from London streets, not HGVs...
IIRC I read something lately where police said after consultation in one area the number one thing people wanted them to focus on was bad cycling - despite the stats.
so instead of saying they're giving us a bad name just say "yeah that right there is a prize nob, nothing to do with me or cyclists"I'd rather be disassociated
Also like half the deaths have been from truck and half of them from tipper trucks pretty obvious the current design of trucks is unsuitable for mixing with cyclists.
It may have been said and i will probably antagonise a few but its true in my mind from experience
Truckers (on a whole) aint the brightest or most gentile of folk, tipper drivers (muck shifting guys) are the lowest form of trucker, the ones not trusted to drive lorries, have crashed them or just qualified. They are the sort who drive all day, and drink all night. There are so little margins in muck shifting that they are always rushing to get an extra trip done in the day as it makes a big difference to their take home as most of the trips go to cover costs, so if they get 6 trips in instead of 5 they may take home £120 instead of £80.
With this in mind they drive like ass holes and pay so little attention its untrue, and hence the skewed number of deaths by them. If it was a visibility thing then they would cause half as many deaths as Articulated trailered trucks cause. I dont know exact figures but know its considerably more than them.
Now car drivers are to blame too, and cyclists are also to blame, me included, however im a lot better rider than someone new to commuting and have been in dodgy situations, however i know what to look out for and im better equipped to get out of a situation if it occurrs.
However back to the point, JUST AVOID TIPPERS LIKE THE PLAGUE and take on board what i say, its through experience of meeting them continually, not on the off chance i met one prat.
Condolences to all taken this week too, its played on my mind a lot when around traffic this week
bland - MemberTruckers (on a whole) aint the brightest of folk
...
if they get 6 trips in instead of 5 they may take home £120 instead of £80.
🙂
I've said it before and i'll say it again.
A National TV ad campaign promoting the LIFESAVER.
@theflatboy - now quote him without the missing bit about the first few trips covering the overheads.
Oh yes.
Is it time for a Dutch style 'stop the murder' campaign do we think?
I disagree with Rachel about the canvassing of opinion - surely any shopkeeper worth his/her salt knows that the key to economic vitality is to get people to walk past or cycle past their shop? Taking cyclists out of the equation just means less business for them
I have another controversial opinion - in tandem with my earlier remarks - each collision is to be investigated properly , and 'death by dangerous driving' taken off the table to be replaced with manslaughter, murder or assault - with sentencing to match. Motoring offences to constitute a criminal record rather than jokey misdemeanors as they are now seen.
each collision is to be investigated properly , and 'death by dangerous driving' taken off the table
i'm sure i mentioned this earlier - but it would be nice if people took a look - it is for all our benefits after all
[url= http://www.roadjustice.org.uk/police-petition-recommendations ]CTC road justice campaign - for thorough investigations and proper sentencing [/url]
Sorry - I will be a stuck record on this one, as i deal with injured cyclist daily in my job and something really needs to be done - PLEASE SIGN IT!
adjustablewench: please include my whole comment, including what I propose should replace 'death by dangerous driving' - I've already been misrepresented as advocating a ban on deaf cyclists (which is totally NOT what I said).
I'll sign. And in the meantime, in addition to being a CTC member, I am quietly campaigning away by myself, by writing letters to TfL (bus driver who 'punish-passed' me), the RAC (learner driver who cut in front of me) and Boris himself.
As for the Police. One morning I found a police van, with two officers in it, parked in the bike lane in Crouch End. This particular bike lane has a qualifying sign giving its times of operation, and is bounded by a solid line. Notwithstanding this, the police van was parked in the bike lane. When I stopped to challenge the police officers they were cocky and condescending. The driver started to wind his window up while I was speaking, and only stopped when I said "Don't wind your window up while I am speaking". Their rationale was some bollocks about a dangerous prisoner (why one would wrestle a dangerous prisoner across a busy road escapes me). I told them that they were setting a very bad example which ill-became them as officers of the law and rode off.
One of the problems if dangerous driving not being used but the lesser sentence of careless driving, also of cases being allocated to magistrates courts when they are limited to the sentence they can hand out.
The list of problems with the judicial process for road traffic collisions is far too long to list here - but my point as I said in my post at the beginning - each collision needs to be investigated properly and sorry if I didnt use all of your point I was only trying to reiterate my initial comments from page one - you may have been misquoted - but I was ignored, both common on here! 🙂
Well worth a read - and a sign of the petition, calling for all police forces to take investigation of all collisions seriously. It also calls for more appropriate sentencing and clearer definitions of careless as opposed to dangerous driving.
Basically - I just hope people sign it and take a minute to read it, thank you for doing so.
There are some other details I can pass on about reporting other incidents if you are interested drop me an email
adjustablewench: no problem, I totally get both your points (just a tiny bit sensitive due to being COMPLETELY misrepresented :))
There are (in my opinion) two points here: one is to change the law/attitude/climate
and one is to stay alive
The first: write to your MP, bus company, truck operator, taxi company, join/support campaign groups .
The second: look after yourself when you ride. Give yourself the best chance of survival: use lights, ride in primary, keep good observation, second-guess what drivers are going to do; use all of your senses; KEEP AWAY FROM TIPPER TRUCKS.
Most studies point the finger at blame massively towards drivers
Source?
[url= http://www.streetsaheadedinburgh.org.uk/ ]Streets Ahead[/url], the Edinburgh City Council road safety website has collated [url= http://streetsaheadedinburgh.org.uk/info/4/pedestrians/79/road_safety_statistics ]road safety statistics for Edinburgh from 2004-2010[/url]. Their Cycle Incident Analysis concluded that:
[i]Two thirds (66%) of serious P/C (pedal cyclist) collisions involved conflict with a car. Goods vehicles were involved in 14% of collisions resulting in serious injury to a P/C.
For all incidents resulting in serious injury to P/C’s, [b]72% of contributory factors were assigned to the other vehicle driver and 28% to the P/C.[/b][/i]
Transport Scotland’s [url= http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/analysis/statistics/TablesPublications/2011RCS-Cas ]road casualty statistics for 2011[/url] show that by far the biggest contributory factor was driver/rider error or reaction (39% of all accidents). In this category, [b]6585 accidents were reported in total[/b] and in [b]203 cases the vehicle was a pedal cycle[/b].
How about that popular demon of British road safety, the red light running cyclist? Transport Scotland figures show that there were [b]168 accidents[/b] where a contributory factor was the driver or rider disobeying an automatic traffic signal. In [b]9 of these accidents the vehicle was a pedal cycle[/b].
In the UK as a whole, something like 25,000 KSIs (killed or seriously injured) a year. I don't have a breakdown of that figure, but I think we can take a guess how many of those incidents cyclists are responsible for.
Sure, a small number of cyclists behave stupidly and cause road accidents, but let's stop apologising and start talking about the facts. Motorists are overwhelmingly responsible for road accidents in this country, by a huge margin.
Karin, you probably need to understand a bit about what you are proposing. Before the death by... offences were invented this is exactly how these matters were dealt with (well manslaughter). But those offences are common law crimes that have been defined over centuries and have quite clearly established principles, and therefore also a range of defence strategies. Precisely because manslaughter was too hard to prove the death by... offence was invented - it is a statutory offence (clearly* defined in law). Abolishing s1 of the RTA 1988 would simply mean more people 'get off with' manslaughter and/or fewer prosecutions.Karinofnine - Member
I have another controversial opinion - in tandem with my earlier remarks - each collision is to be investigated properly , and 'death by dangerous driving' taken off the table to be replaced with manslaughter, murder or assault - with sentencing to match. Motoring offences to constitute a criminal record rather than jokey misdemeanors as they are now seen.
However, as I and others have pointed out on here before, even if you were to redefine the death by offences into something simpler to prove with a huge sentence on it - it would be little impact to PREVENT accidents. Nobody sets off in the morning with the penalties for "Death by..." in their head and thinks "oh well its only likely to be [a year in prison / a year driving ban / a community sentence]...". Because its highly likely that if you drive like a **** you will get away with it (both physically and legally). If you want the judicial system to make the roads safer you need to focus on catching the "minor" offences where no death occurs.
* some people may argue the clearly part - however there is a specific act of parliament and sections of that act which apply.
I disagree.
Notwithstanding my remarks about crazy cyclists.
If motorists knew they were going to lose their licence/freedom they would be more careful around vulnerable road users. Let's get away from the word 'cyclist' and think about 'vulnerable'.
I have posted on here before, it would only take a few swingeing, punitive sentences to alter the culture.
I have to go to sleep now, work tomorrow/today actuallyl
Tragically you need to update the thread title....another cyclist was killed last night
Twodogs is right, there was another person killed last night in [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24936942 ]London[/url]:
Seems a day doesn't pass at the moment without a cyclist getting killed. Very sad. Ride safe everyone.
crazy-legs - Member
When was the last time a driver had any specific training? The answer for 90% of them will be "when they passed their test" which for some 60 year old doddering to the shops in his Micra will be 40-odd years ago. So nigh on useless and in modern terms may as well be considered as "having no training".
FFS - I'd better "dodder off" and voluntarily hand my license in then, as I won't see 60 again.
Funny that, because accident statistics show it's not the experienced drivers that are the most dangerous. It's those that have most recently passed their test.
Seems a day doesn't pass at the moment without a cyclist getting killed.
I dont want to sound all Daily Mail but it's a national disgrace that is being ignored by the powers that be.
up to 5 in 9 days now
scu98rkr - Member
up to 5 in 9 days now
Seriously 🙁
http://road.cc/content/news/98854-londons-killer-roundabout-claims-another-cyclist-woman-dies-bow
Seems a day doesn't pass at the moment without a cyclist getting killed.
I dont want to sound all Daily Mail but it's a national disgrace that is being ignored by the powers that be.
Sorry for being flippant on what is a serious issue - but 5 in 9 days does not equal one per day. Paul Dacre would be delighted to receive your application!
Oh well thats ok then, carry on folks 😕
just come back to this thread this morning, now utterly gutted to see another death 🙁
Just to make this not London centric, it is six in nine days as a cyclist was killed in Nantwich day before yesterday in a hit and run by a lorry - driver has now been arrested.
will - Memberscu98rkr - Member
up to 5 in 9 days nowSeriously
http://road.cc/content/news/98854-londons-killer-roundabout-claims-another-cyclist-woman-dies-bow
Sorry to be [i]that guy[/i] but I think you meant this link?
http://road.cc/content/news/98950-cyclist-killed-bus-crash-whitechapel
I used to cycle around Aldgate as part of my commute, its a horrendous gyratoy.
RIP
what you said wasI've already been misrepresented as advocating a ban on deaf cyclists (which is totally NOT what I said).
having earphones in (or indeed being deaf) and being oblivious to your surroundings are two very different things as I'm sure you appreciate, so it's a bit weird that you put the two together in the same post. Other posters in other threads have said things more akin to "headphones = deathwish" which is a variation of victim blaming I get a bit sensitive about.People ride along with earphones in, completely oblivious to what's going on around them, distracted by whatever they are listening to and cut off from their surroundings. Crazy.
Obviously I completely agree with you on the investigating accidents properly and proper deterrent sentencing for people who kill with their vehicle.
More sad news 🙁
Sorry to be that guy but I think you meant this link?http://road.cc/content/news/98950-cyclist-killed-bus-crash-whitechapel
Yeah I did cheers.
Oh great.
Boris Johnson, the great protector of cyclists, he of the great bicycle hire scheme has come out with the following pearls of wisdom.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/14/fifth-london-bike-death-bus-superhighway
Well done Boris - way to go on reinforcing the them vs us sterotypes.
Buffoon.
a load of stuff which sounds exactly like victim blaming. Dick. Has he had the results of the all the investigations then? Had a quick inquiry that concluded cyclists were at fault? Or is he just trying to deflect attention away from him?"You cannot blame the victim in these circumstances. But what you can say is..."
<edit> [url= http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/10809460.Cyclist_in_critical_condition_after_road_accident_in_Heaton/ ]closer to (my) home[/url] 🙁
a load of stuff which sounds exactly like victim blaming. Dick. Has he had the results of the all the investigations then? Had a quick inquiry that concluded cyclists were at fault? Or is he just trying to deflect attention away from him?
Exactly. Without facts and details remarks like Boris's are just reactionary BS. I've never much liked the bloke tbh, but I thought better of him than this
You can not call Boris a moron in these circumstances, but what you can say is Boris is a moron.
5 deaths, and he's pretty much blamed them all on cyclists running red lights and not look what they're doing, despite knowing nothing about the accidents.
My estimation of Boris has just gone downwards. A long way.
He's just trying to distance himself from the superhighways which he made so much of a fuss of... IMO they're a thoroughly crap solution anyway. Blue paint doesn't force drivers to give me space or stop tailgating me...
He's in a place of great influence and making such an anecdotal, subjective and ill-informed (Police surveys show most collisions between car drivers and cyclists are the fault of the driver) statement is a very poor reflection on his priorities and sends a deeply unhelpful message out to the masses
Well, I would guess that Boris is likely in a better position to have heard preliminary police reports into any of the deaths than we are...
Having volunteered a few times down at the TRL where they have been testing cycle facilities, I'm also more than happy to come to the conclusions that
i) a lot of effort and research is being put in behind the scenes designing solutions that work, rather than just throwing in anything willy-nilly
ii) A lot of the things that initially seem good ideas, really don't function that well when you actually put riders and traffic on them
I think what gets forgotten in this debate is the asymmetry of the relationship between bikes and vehicles.
To kill someone in a car with my bike I would need to persuade them somehow to leave the safety of their metal box and either strangle them with my chain or bludgeon them repeatedly with the whole bike.
To kill someone on a bike with my car I just need to change direction without looking
So while cyclists aren't perfect blaming them seems to miss the point
borris has previous in making up bullshit claims about cyclists being at fault in most accidents
hed said that cyclists were at fault in 60% of collisions
he later coneded hed heard that figure off a stranger
actual..
[img] 
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http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2012/may/25/cycling-governed-dimwits
in response london cycling campaign .....
he is, which is why I put question marks up there, I'm also inclined to bet heavily that he hasn't seen them yet and is talking out of his arse. If he has seen them should he really be blaming victims in public just from preliminary reports?Well, I would guess that Boris is likely in a better position to have heard preliminary police reports into any of the deaths than we are...
Preliminary police reports said that Jean Charles de Menezes jumped the gate
I've already been misrepresented as advocating a ban on deaf cyclists (which is totally NOT what I said).I'll sign.
How do you sign the noise of a tipper truck?
The media needs to sort itself out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24936942
The as yet unnamed cyclist was not wearing a helmet at the time of collision with the route 205 bus, Metropolitan Police said.
Um, the poor guy got cleaned up by a bus, I'm not sure we should be concerned about whether or not he had a plastic hat on.
lol @ aracer
Seriously, 8-wheelers - they're noisy, they stink, they're big and they make the ground shake. Not much frightens me but tipper trucks with those great big wheels properly give me the willies (I give them a WIDE berth). That bashed-in, rusty, uncared-for bodywork tells me they aren't worried about a scratch or two (a car owner's desire to keep their car looking nice is - I think HOPE - something that gives me at least a little protection).
"The fault in most bicycle accidents lies with the behaviour of some drivers, with the design of some lorries, with the lay-out of some junctions, and more profoundly with the way politicians, council officials and urban planners, when designing and refining Britain’s transport infrastructure, have neglected cyclists for decades."
It comes to something when the leader in [url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3922571.ece ]the Times[/url] is more positive than so many people contributing to a cycling forum.
6 in 10 days now 🙁
Reports of a woman hit by a HGV at Roehampton. Terrible .
^^driver arrested suspicion of death by dangerous driving
I've had a few crashes and close calls. The crashes were (AFAICR) all down to the driver either not looking or seeing me. Some of the close calls were my own fault though. I do tank along at a decent link.
I don't think people are out to get you, and I try to be cheery and respectful to car drivers. In the case of bad driving, I might attempt to make it obvious that a particular maneuver was dangerous.
I just think we should all try and get along, however I've never biked in London either.
A 55 year old cyclist was killed this month in Sheffield. Today wad his funeral. They were discussing it on radio Sheffield this morning. They had a so called expert on advising cyclists to wear high visibility clothing, to use lights etc. No mention of drivers taking care despite the fact that the driver in question has been arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving and the accident happening in daylight hours. Boils my piss!
Reports of a woman hit by a HGV at Roehampton. Terrible .
apparently not a cyclist
newsnight feature now bbc2
Rode in today (SE London to Paddington). Yet again, close passes, tailgating, hooting, abuse... all for choosing a different form of transport from a car or the Tube.
Maybe, just maybe the media and political fuss of all the deaths this week might be a turning point...
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/video/2013/nov/15/cyclist-london-cycle-superhighway-2-video#start-of-comments ]http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/video/2013/nov/15/cyclist-london-cycle-superhighway-2-video#start-of-comments[/url]
The new bit at the end of the clip looks quite good but that half-arsed segregation at the roundabout is pretty scary. I would not want to ride around there.
It comes to something when the leader in the Times is more positive than so many people contributing to a cycling forum.
The difference being that he's probably a cyclist.
just keeps getting worse 🙁
wondering why it has been so bad in just this last few days (as compared with the few weeks just before say) - is it co-incidence or is there an explanation such as the clocks changing or the weather being worse or ...?