£3.62 a KM... VFM or No?

MacAvalance is approx 2.5x that per KM.

Does include an uplift though.

entering races is not VFM when you look at the cost per KM ridden. I'd rather spend the cash on something else but thats me. I raced when I was younger but got no interest in it now.

Put more effort/time into practice and it'd be cheaper per KM.

#lazyar5e 🙂

A total of 13.26km.

For two laps of an enduro?

I don't think you could ever work it out like that.

Would it have been better VFM if they'd added a mandatory 50km bridleway loop to stage 1? Arguably no.

What about a 50km off-road sportive? Yes even though there's no racing?

Is a 2 day event of which only 2-3hours is racing better value than one you can drive to/from in a day? Arguably yes?

Bike racing is expensive. SSUK is ~£70 for 1x 3 hour race (and some camping, entertainment, and beer). Sailing dinghy class national championships are £70, 9+ 1hour races, camping and some food. I still do both if I've got the time, and both feel like good VFM. It's the intangible things that are VFM anyway. The organizer is charging you for building the course, marshals, insurance, and whatever else. You're actually paying because you want to race against other people (who are paying to race against you), so ironically the organizer is actually making their money from the thing that's actually free to them (or paying them for the privilege).

Wear on parts is a different matter, at the sharp end the sailing justifies new sails which even in a one design runs to £800. They'll last a year or three, but they're only at their optimum for those first few weekends.

V50 cross race is £1.50-£2 a KM and on balance I'd say the courses are generally a bit easier to set and marshall. In fact in terms of course length they're probably about £10 a KM.

So not outrageous really, but sounds a lot on the face of it. Both are just as much about the day out.

This is another reason I've never been tempted to pay 48 pounds to have it offically confirmed I'm not very fast.

Of all the people to respond first about VFM... 😀

Put more effort/time into practice and it’d be cheaper per KM.

#lazyar5e 🙂

haha, its a fair comment, unfortunately the length of the queues for each stage ate into riding time.

As i say, was more of a brain dump or observation really. a topic of discussion if you will.

Its interesting to hear the costs of other sports or events. Puts it into perspective slightly better.

To be honest, i should know racing isnt cheap, it cost an average of £1000 a meeting when i did some low level car racing many moons ago and for that i only got 45 mins in the car over the course of a weekend!!

There's lots of activities where you can't really look at the cost/unit if you want it to 'make sense' or value for money.

Cinema - £15 to sit and watch a film you can just wait a few months to see for free - £7.50/hr
Bowling - £15 to throw a ball 10-20 times depending how good you are - approx £1/throw - gets more expensive the better you are!
Karting - £50 to drive a slow car round a track for 30mins - £100/hr
Meal out - £60 to eat food in a restaurant you could probably make yourself for a tenth of the cost.

You paid £48 to do the event. That's it.
If it was worth £48, great. If not, perhaps don't bother again.

Think I paid £7 for a 100km audax at the weekend, plus a donation to Air Ambulance in return for sandwiches, tea and cake at the end.

Sounds much better VFM!

I class the big DH races as brilliant VFM.

2 days of uplift with 8 hours total practice, so say 12 runs, all uplifted. Add to that 2 race runs or 1 race 1 qually. So 14 runs in 2 days..£90..... i think that's decent.

There’s lots of activities where you can’t really look at the cost/unit if you want it to ‘make sense’ or value for money.

Spitfire flights work out at around £100/min.

Of all the people to respond first about VFM…

I rarely comment on value for money, as it’s so subjective. I take a great deal of value from what I spend my money on, others think it’s ridiculous. Much as I think other peoples spending choices are ridiculous, but they love what they are paying for.

There’s lots of activities where you can’t really look at the cost/unit if you want it to ‘make sense’ or value for money.

My daughters compete in jiu-jitsu. Lots of money for a few minutes of time on the mat. Often less, because they are quite good and occasionally get a submission. I sometimes feel like telling them to stop choking that girl, it's not cost effective. 😀

Loads of lovely road bike hills around Milland, including Milland Lane and Snailing Lane, that both hit ~20%. I still need to tick Borden Lane off my to-do list, as well as try the various climbs around Black Down.

A total of 13.26km.

For two laps of an enduro?

the nature of the southerns - not horrendously steep so the climb is quite direct, and all on one forest hillside. most of the venues I recon would fit into a single square kilometer box.

I wouldn't be upset for £48 for a day out on the bike if it scratches a competitive itch.

If you want to upset yourself in "value for money", work out your cost per minute on the stages only?

There’s lots of activities where you can’t really look at the cost/unit if you want it to ‘make sense’ or value for money.

Cinema – £15 to sit and watch a film you can just wait a few months to see for free – £7.50/hr
Bowling – £15 to throw a ball 10-20 times depending how good you are – approx £1/throw – gets more expensive the better you are!
Karting – £50 to drive a slow car round a track for 30mins – £100/hr
Meal out – £60 to eat food in a restaurant you could probably make yourself for a tenth of the cost.

You paid £48 to do the event. That’s it.
If it was worth £48, great. If not, perhaps don’t bother again.

yup, thats a fair breakdown of things, although i would counter that with the fact you cant do many of those things in your own time/space/locale. Well unless you have your own bowling alley or go-kart track?

If you want to upset yourself in “value for money”, work out your cost per minute on the stages only?

Given how well i "ride", I reckon I'd probably get better VFM on the down than the up 😂

For want of a less twee way of phrasing it though, you're paying for smiles not miles

I raced at Milland too and I though it was a great day out, and I was quite happy paying £48. I'm not great at really pushing my speed when I'm riding "for fun" and I really love how an occasional race gets me riding in a different way.

Also, you can't ride Milland without paying in one way or another - coaching with Francie Arthur/Duet, occasional open days and once/twice a year races. The tracks are like a well-maintained version of some of my local trails, without the concern of meeting walkers round the next corner.

I wouldn't get stuck into hundreds of pounds and multiple weekends away - I've got two little kiddies and I can't justify to myself the expense or time away. I'm old, not sponsored, or ever likely to be, not chasing prizes or podiums or (I did get a couple racing hardtails, but then it's Mike Smith then the stragglers!) I just like the occasional push to remind me how much faster I could/can go - an occasional local race does that for me.

So I don't think about it as £per km, it's a concentrated riding experience that I spread over the rest of my riding.

I'd say not. They could add extra stages for no extra cost - I'd not be happy with a free day's riding that was only 13km, let alone paying nearly £50 for one!

Would you go out and ride 13km on your own, for fun? I definitely wouldn't. If I were paying for a day's riding I'd definitely want more than that.

coaching with Francie Arthur

i only found out yesterday that she coaches up there, would explain why she dominates! (well that and the fact she is a very talented rider).

Always depended on the tracks for me. £50 to race somewhere I didn't know, or on private land, or on new-built trails was ace.

£50 to race round Afan trail centre (Gravity Enduro) or Swinley (Southern) always felt a bit of a let down. Especially if there wasn't much going on other than the racing.

i only found out yesterday that she coaches up there, would explain why she dominates! (well that and the fact she is a very talented rider).

And she's lovely. I was very chuffed to be a fraction quicker than her on Sunday!

tomhoward

Spitfire flights work out at around £100/min.

That's why my Wife got me a Tiger Moth flight for my 40th, rather than a Spitfire. Still a brilliant experience.

v7fmp

yup, thats a fair breakdown of things, although i would counter that with the fact you cant do many of those things in your own time/space/locale. Well unless you have your own bowling alley or go-kart track?

Tongue-in-cheek Devil's advocate - so you can race a stage event against others with timing, get first-aid if needed, have a course set-up for you (probably with a photographer) etc. etc. in your own time/space/locale without this event?
Great. Crack on, then 😉

Would you go out and ride 13km on your own, for fun? I definitely wouldn’t

Depends on the ride. Up and down helvellyn can be 6k for sticks, 15 for dolly wagon and both are a brilliant ride.

I did a 19k day in Italy last year with about 2000m of climbing, bloody awesome.

I've done plenty of 50k days of utterly uninspiring drudgery

Tongue-in-cheek Devil’s advocate – so you can race a stage event against others with timing, get first-aid if needed, have a course set-up for you (probably with a photographer) etc. etc. in your own time/space/locale without this event?
Great. Crack on, then 😉

haha, i am picking up what you are putting down 🙂

But... to almost break Rule 1... Location - yup, anywhere offraod. Timing - yup, thats what strava does. First aid- good old 999. Photographer - Timer on my phone, then add mega insta-filters. 😛

But dont get me wrong, i appreciate there is plenty to setup and do. And no one put a gun to my head to enter. And i dont quibble over the price of the Southern Enduro Champs or Ard Rock etc. Just for some reason, on this occasion i decided to question the VFM factor.

Location – yup, anywhere offraod

probably want somewhere good to ride though, eh?

Timing – yup, thats what strava does, badly

FTFY

First aid- good old 999.

I was seen within 1 min of breaking my collarbone in a field in Northumberland last year, what’s the response like without on-site first aid?

TBH, for 99% of the racing amateurs out there, racing is incredibly bad VFM.

Unless you're either getting expenses paid, or winning (usually go hand in hand TBH), it's just a way to spend disposable income-

If it's not disposable, you really shouldn't be spending it.

(i did one national series race around the turn of the century, my mate won and i finished second, between us we netted less than 150 quid prize money, that *just* covered fuel and the accommodation. Well, it would have done if it'd been cash, but it was wheelies vouchers, so covered eff all. Just glad that entry fees were covered by our sponsor at the time.)

@TomHoward - that’s the old expensive vs cheap shoes VFM theory. If you spend £1000 on a pair of handmade Italian shoes and wear them everyday in the office for 10 years (say 250 days a year) they work out better value than a £10 pair from Asda that you wear once for the odd wedding and never touch again.

The first cost 1000 times more but are much better VFM as they cost you approx 40p/day compared to the cheap ones that cost you £2-10 a day (depending how many posh dos you go to).

Neither are right or wrong, just different for different people.

Friends thought I was crazy 10 years ago to spend £3,500 on an Orange Alpine 160, compared to their cheaper 2nd bikes, but I rode it for over 8 years 2-4 days a week (until kids got in the way) and it outlasted all their bikes by about 6 or 7 years.
And that’s not even accounting for the Sam Vimes theory. LOL.

If all you are factoring in is riding time/distance then no, it really isn't VFM. However, there is far more to the event than that and that should also be factored in. I'm guessing whilst you weren't on the clock it was a good social vibe going on? Bi of chatting with others, sharing stories/jokes, etc.? That can be had with your regular riding buddies but it is also good to go out and mingle with the rest of the great unwashed MTB people.

The actual event itself has costs that need covered - even without trying to make money out of it, the event itself will have cost a small fortune to put on - this isn't really anything that the rider/racer directly considers, but putting an event on isn't cheap (MTB timed events tend to have a higher risk and a more expensive insurance cost - which may also require more expensive first aid solutions i.e. an outfit with a suitable offroad vehicle and not just a single volunteer from the local St Johns Ambulance team - which adds to the expense.

I had a similar thought when I entered the Enjoyro at Glentress last year - hadn't entered an event for years (Actually 10 Under back in 2017, I think was my last entered event) and I did think it was a bit pricey - but then when I got there, I hadn't appreciated all the stuff that had been done - ended up having a fantastic day riding and didn't bother about the cost. I didn't enter it this year though - not due to cost, but I did note the price had gone up a couple of quid again.

Events aren't cheap, but if you aren't doing them week in and week out, then the cost is for the whole experience, which does tend to make it a bit more agreeable (unless you crash out on the first section of the first stage, but in general, the events tend to be great fun).

Rather than VFM I would ask if you enjoyed it or not. If you did then it was worth it, if you didn't (and its clearly playing on your mind enough to work out the cost and post about it a few days later so perhaps not?) then it wasn't good value.

VfM is so subjective that an any meaningful analysis is (almost) impossible.
What about considerations such as...enjoyment, achievement, self satisfaction, ego boost and many more.
At a personal level, if you can justify to yourself it was money well spent - that's VfM to you.
It's different in a work context where it can become contentious when looking at services specifically.

Would you go out and ride 13km on your own, for fun? I definitely wouldn’t

if your interest is "enduro" descending single track, then I can't really stress how compact and efficient* the southerns are, and milland especially.

that 13k was probably 6.5km singletrack descent, 6.5km climb.

I'd love to do 6.5km of singletrack descending, I'd call that a great ride. I love a singletrack climb too, but I think I'm in a minority.

*although the nature of racing means that it does take the whole day here - that annoying wait in the middle between practise and race, and the queuing for your start is a tad annoying.

Ironman-branded triathlons are cheap per unit distance but really the most poor value sporting events out there (with the exception of that stupid ultramarathon for bankers in Scotland I won't name check).

Ironman Bolton (England's only 'official' ironman) is £502 this year. £502!!!

And that's excluding Active's ludicrous 9.25% admin fee on top, making it virtually £550. Ohh and if you want m-dot bling the cost rises further!

There's a good reason I've avoided Ironman branded events and only done independent iron distance races like Outlaw, Lakesman, Xtri by Durty Events, etc.

That’s better value than zwift which is infinitely more expensive per kilometre

I’ve paid £140 to ride 160km of “gravel” this summer. But I get day time food, 2 nights camping and a baggage transfer included. I’ll tell you if his value afterwards

No prize money would make them cheaper for almost everyone. I've organised a few races (road+CX), very generally I'd say they could have been at least 10% cheaper to enter without prize money.

If it was up to me there would be no prize money - for starters we're amateurs, then even if you get some prize money it generally at best covers your entry plus a bit, I can't believe anyone races for the money in the races that most of us do. It's pretty much an insult to everyone else.

Can anyone who gets on the box change my mind?

Can anyone who gets on the box change my mind?

I’ve podiumed/won a few enduros & never won any money. Usually it’s some crap gift from a bike shop sponsor that came out of their bargain bin.

I can only remember once I won a decent haul of stuff, mostly which I sold as it was things I wouldn’t use myself.

As for being worth it? I think the fact that I only do a handful of races a year these days is the evidence I need to say not. I am not that motivated by competition to race tracks that are shorter & worse than the stuff on my front door.

I’ve said this before but to me Enduro isnt as good as it used to be. There are way too many one day events & you end up doing such a small ride, it’s just not worth it. When it used to be a weekend affair which was a 50km loop & 1500m of climbing, that felt decent & worth doing.

Bike racing is expensive. SSUK is ~£70 for 1x 3 hour race (and some camping, entertainment, and beer).

SSUK.... race? 😛

I've never been fussed about paying to ride events etc. Done quite a few back in the late 00's (SITS, 10UTB, etc) and also the SS stuff, but was always more about the weekend away / social side than the riding for me - hence the SS events. Haven't done anything like that for years as its easy enough to do the social weekend away and still ride bikes, but without the timing/race environment.

I’ve said this before but to me Enduro isnt as good as it used to be. There are way too many one day events & you end up doing such a small ride, it’s just not worth it. When it used to be a weekend affair which was a 50km loop & 1500m of climbing, that felt decent & worth doing

The Haibike series usually has practice the day before.

My bike has currently cost me £1.57 per km ridden if that puts anything into perspective...

There’s lots of activities where you can’t really look at the cost/unit if you want it to ‘make sense’ or value for money.

I used to race karts, that's stupidly expensive per km if you want to be remotely competitive.

That’s better value than zwift which is infinitely more expensive per kilometre

...or gym membership, when you don't go...

I did a long ish fell running race in the lakes on Saturday. £18 entry, including beer at the finish, dinner (delicious chilli & rice) and a couple of cups of tea. 25km, so a whole lot cheaper/better value which probably explains why the only bike race I've done in 10+ years has been a solo Strathpuffer whereas I've probably done 40 fell races in that time.

I do miss the DH racing at times, but the cost and time away from home wasn't justifiable for me once kids were on the scene.

This ties in with what I was saying about Dirty Reiver. Their price (£75) was annoying.
Large enough to create high expectations but apparently too small to actually put on a quality experience (course excepted).
Yet cheap by ‘distance’ at just 38p per KM 🤣

I’d say I’m happy paying £20-£25 for a weekly series (Crit/CX/XC).

£40-£60 maybe for a bigger but not especially notable event

And then for a ‘one off’ flagship marquee event that I may only ride once or twice ever- I’d probably pay £200.

And then for a ‘one off’ flagship marquee event that I may only ride once or twice ever- I’d probably pay £200.

@crosshair
Next year you need to head to Belgium in spring. Do one of the big ones.

Yeah possibly. A few locals did Strada Bianche which looked awesome.

that’s the old expensive vs cheap shoes VFM theory.

The Sam Vimes "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness, often called simply the boots theory, is an economic theory first popularised by English fantasy writer Sir Terry Pratchett in his 1993 Discworld novel Men at Arms. In the novel, Sam Vimes, the captain of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch, reasons that poverty causes greater expenses to the poor than to those who are richer. Since its publication, the theory has received wider attention, especially in regard to the effect of increasing prices of daily necessities.

That’s better value than zwift which is infinitely more expensive per kilometre

Except no one much measures training in km, it's generally a time based activity.

I’ve podiumed/won a few enduros & never won any money. Usually it’s some crap gift from a bike shop sponsor that came out of their bargain bin.

TBH, i've found that to be a very UK thing. I've done a bit in Europe and *everyone* pitches in. Even for the local crits. Cash, food, beer, wine, actual useful vouchers that you can sell or use.
I mean, i didn't win much (anything really!), but even a prime will net you 20-30 euros, i even got money for being in a breakaway for more than 10 laps.

Surprising seeing as the entry for that sort of event was only in the 5/10/15 euro range

Bike racing is expensive. SSUK is ~£70 for 1x 3 hour race (and some camping, entertainment, and beer).

I think SSUK is a bad example for making racing expensive as I think it is vfm as when I went you had the race, a BBQ, a party, and on the first day a local ride with pub stops.