2023 Zeb Ultimate issues?

* Meant to be 170mm travel but only shows around 163mm of stanchion when correct sag
* Not reaching full travel even when running lots of sag
* Sits quite low in its travel
* Quite rough and keep getting sore hands when riding fast down rough trails

- When sagged you should see a lot less stanchion than that. What is it unsagged?
- Take the air cap off, see if it reaches full travel
- If you're really only using 7mm of sag than sort that out first. Should be more like 20-25% sag
- Given the other aspects of setup that seem incorrect I'm not surprised

Sorry What I've wrote doesn't make sense.

With the right air pressure in the forks to give the correct sag Im only seeing 163mm of stanchion when Im not on the bike. Obviously when Im on the bike it sits further into its travel to give the correct sag.

I have to put a load of air in it to show the correct 170mm of travel.

Transfer port might be blocked, too much grease on the air spring when assembled

Dropping the lowers and removing, refitting the spring would probably sort it out

Perhaps you need to service your fork because the manufacturer forgot to grease or oil it?

Top end fork,and mine is low end (Revelation with moco damper), but.....

Full bike build. Was never happy with the fork. I was getting beaten up on technical trails. I couldn't put anywhere near the air state in the app. Sag was wrong, use of travel messed up. It just wasn't behaving as advertised.

When it came time for service, I found no oil in the air spring leg bottom, and no evidence of grease applied at the factory inside anywhere. After I greased and oiled it correctly its working a lot better. I can now put in the correct amount of air stated on the RockShox app. Sag is correct. And I use the full travel properly.

I also have an SR Suntour Durolux 36 EQ with high and low speed adjusters for both compression and rebound. Initially the Durolux was miles better. After I serviced and *corrected the revelation, the gap between the two narrowed drastically.

I've bought two RockShox forks new in my life. The gap between purchases has been long because the first was a Psylo XC that came with only a few drops of oil. I feel I've been suckered twice by RockShox now. But it is an avenue to go down to see if your brand new fork has been crippled by poor assembly.

Have a read of this
https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=223747&pagenum=4

"I'm willing to bet its the air shaft. The head on the ZEB airshaft has a hole in it, and that hole should be aligned with the hole on the shaft itself. This increases the negative volume of the fork.

Mine wasn't aligned, and I was running low 60's PSI at 86kg/190lbs. The fork was always harsh, and I could just never get it dialed.

After realigning them, I am running 10-15 PSI higher, and had to change all my LSC/HSC/R settings. Feels so much closer to my Lyrik now, and dialed.

Check your air spring for that alignment, I have a feeling this is what is causing wild PSI and setting differences across this thread."

^The Zeb ultimate 2023 doesn't have an air piston like that one.

With the right air pressure in the forks to give the correct sag Im only seeing 163mm of stanchion when Im not on the bike.

It's an eBike, why wouldn't you expect the suspension to sag under its own weight?

What happens when you lift it off the ground, how much 'travel' now?

Assuming the fork doesn’t have anything fundamentally wrong I’d normally set it up with 25% ish sag. If you’re then not using most of the travel I’d check firstly it will compress all the way with the air cap off and that it moves easily (to rule out bushes binding).

Has it then got bottomless tokens in it? Remove some if it has and you want it to be more linear.

On the damping side have you tried it with both compression damping dials wide open? If you have too much compression damping on you could make the fork spikier.

Edit - if it’s an ebike it’s probably white heavy - I wouldn’t be that surprised for it to sag 7mm under its own weight.

With the right air pressure in the forks to give the correct sag Im only seeing 163mm of stanchion when Im not on the bike. Obviously when Im on the bike it sits further into its travel to give the correct sag.

Maybe let some of the air out of the fork and try compressing it a few times to equalise the negative spring. +1 for checking for stiction, taking the lowers off and inspecting the seals/oil etc and for backing off the compression a tad.

It’s an eBike, why wouldn’t you expect the suspension to sag under its own weight?

- Possibly this too, it's likely that the weight of the bike will cause some static sag. Have you tried turning it upside down, cycling the lowers slightly and then checking the travel again?

TBH I've neither owned nor ridden a Zeb, but my experiences with (counts) eight Rockshox forks owned since 2006 has been wholly positive thus far.

Where did you get them from? Somewhere that deals in suspension or a bike shop/online retailer?

Purchased from Leisure lakes.

TO be honest I hadn't even thought of the weight of the bike affecting the sag.

Have you taken out any air tokens?

Also Rockshox are quite renowned for not putting enough oil in their forks. It’s one of 5he reasons TFTuned strip all theirs down before selling them to you.

Purchased from Leisure lakes.

TO be honest I hadn’t even thought of the weight of the bike affecting the sag.

Get the bushes checked in it. All the 2023 Zebs we have seen have very tight bushes.

The weight of the bike on the forks will account for 7mm surely? Another way of looking at it, when you take off on a jump the full 170 will appear.

Yeah, I always final check sag n travel with the bike in the stand.

The last bit indicates it's defo not set up right.

You'll probably spend weeks messing about with it before giving up and flogging it again.

Invest in a Shockwiz - hire or buy.

Yeah, I always final check sag n travel with the bike in the stand.

Eh? You can check travel, but not sag in a stand.

Cheers all,

Yesterday I did a ride around the woods as normal, about 19 miles over all sorts of trails and managed to get a good feel of what is going on with the fork.

It seems to be sinking into its travel quite often, I can feel this in the amount of weight I am putting through my wrists becomes more as the front of the bike sinks down. However if I pull up on the bars it sits up higher in its travel for a bit then and then the cycle repeats.

Sag is set at 40mm which is just under 25% of the travel.

One thing I did do is decrease the rebound on the fork so its a bit quicker and this has helped with the feel of the fork a bit.

A friend has lent me a shockwiz so going to have a play with that.

Try increasing the low speed compression damping a little

Have you tried burping them? it sounds like they are being sucked down. if you slip a zip tie down the seals (make sure they are clean) you will see the fork extend i think this can also be achieved by pressing the valve buttons on both the stantions on the new zebs.

I have to put a load of air in it to show the correct 170mm of travel.

How are you measuring that?
How much negative travel is that?

Sorry What I’ve wrote doesn’t make sense.

With the right air pressure in the forks to give the correct sag Im only seeing 163mm of stanchion when Im not on the bike.

and ????

Obviously when Im on the bike it sits further into its travel to give the correct sag.

I have to put a load of air in it to show the correct 170mm of travel.

How is it "showing travel" ? This still makes no sense?
Are you confusing sag with travel ???

It seems to be sinking into its travel quite often, I can feel this in the amount of weight I am putting through my wrists becomes more as the front of the bike sinks down.

I don't think this is necessarily a symptom of the fork. Is the bike new to you? Lots of things affect weight on your wrists, and if you're finding it uncomfortable there's lots of adjustments to your body position you can do to help. On a 170mm fork 25% sag seems pretty low, but again it depends on how you're measuring it. How often are you bottoming out?

Hi all

Sorry for any confusion. the fork is meant to be 170mm travel. With the air pressure set for my weight and to get the correct sag there is around 160-163mm of stanchion showing with the weight of the bike on it. Unweighted there is about 170mm so I guess that is right. However with all the air out of the fork and compressed all the way in the o ring doesn't hit the crown of the fork and there is about 5-6mm of travel left.

Ive been to Cwmcarn today and done the two red trails, had a horrendous time and had to stop on some of the descents as my hand and arms were getting battered. I tried lowering the air pressure and even put the hsc and lsc to minimum and the fork still felt really harsh and just crap. After the first Red I went back to the car and let all the air out of the fork. when there was nothing left in it I pressed both bleed valves on the back of the fork, Right one did nothing but when I pressed the left one it let a load or air out and sucked the fork right in.

Something definitely not right, it just doesn't feel composed at all.

Bike isn't new, I've had it since March but the fork has only been on for about 4 months. My previous bike was the carbon version of my current bike fitted with a fox 38 170mm travel. It felt completely different to this.

Oh and the fork never bottoms out when riding, even with 30%sag it still has about 1.5cm of travel left. Despite having no volume reducers fitted it seems to really ramp up at the end of the stroke

Get the bushes checked in it. All the 2023 Zebs we have seen have very tight bushes.

On a big travel fork like that it would need a very big hit to get full travel.
I’d prefer to set up by bouncing front and rear together (carpark, rolling along) with an observer to watch compression / rebound response. The idea is to get front and rear even.
My 23 ultimate feels pretty plush. I do have damping full open and only 2 clicks rebound from full open.
My mates got the same fork, same bike - his feels harsh so I’m intrigued by this thread.
A new fork that feels wrong needs opening for an expert check over and proper lube I reckon. Lack of confidence once something is perceived to be wrong spoils every ride I reckon.

I use the EXT “super slippy” lube - it’s a small bottle with a dripper nozzle and a pick / seal opener tool - to lube the fork seals. It definitely makes my Zeb feel smoother.
Get it as a kit from Mojo Rising / Geometron Bikes near Monmouth.
https://www.mojo.co.uk/ev68s-inc-plastic-pick-tool-1716-p.asp

It’s really bizarre. I turned the hsc and lsc to fully open and dropped the air pressure and it was still really harsh.

If anything it got worse the more riding I did.

Don't use those bleeders with the fork compressed as you'll create too much of a vacuum when it extends.

As said above.. This sounds like a symptom of tight bushings. No amount of playing / tuning / running in will help I am afraid. Drop all the air and set rebound / compression to minimum (ideally remove air cap). Flip bike upside down, remove wheel and then pull up and push down on the forks... Should be lovely and smooth, fork should compress and extent very easily with no stiction or notchieness.

Have had exactly the same issue as you describe on 2 pairs of 2022 revs, and a pair of lyrics. Just could not get them set up right at all, small bump compliance was terrible and forks would sit deep in travel.

SRAM / Rockshox QC seems be getting worse. First two pairs went back to SRAM under warranty and came back pretty much the same (tiny bit better but not ideal)... Got fed up so made up a crude Bush resizing tool and now the forks work brilliantly.

Might be lube or something else but my money is on either the upper or lower bushing being too tight (lower seems to affect small bump compliance more and upper deeper travel or might be both are tight)

I would send it back... Or sent it to someone like tf tuned. Might be weeing in the wind playing with setup if there is a fundimental problem internally.

Good luck

SRAM/Rockshox QC has always been terrible. For years they’ve been renowned for sending out their forks with too little oil and tight bushings seem very common over the last few years.

Couple of points worth mentioning -
The suggestion that grease is blocking the little transfer dimple in the stanchion is absolute nonsense and a very common misconception that appears on forums. There's absolutely no way that grease will hold back high air pressure. This myth is wrongly diagnosed because its actually the removal of the air shaft (and therefore release of any excess negative pressure) that cures the sucked-down issue. People then remove lots grease and re-assembled and think that it was the grease causing the issue all along.

The mention of burping the fork is also forum favourite for wrongly diagnosing. If you have air trapped in the lower leg this will cause the fork to over-extend rather than suck down. And it also means that you have an air leak from the negative air seal head which is allowing air pressure to leak from the stanchion into the lower leg void. Sliding a zip tie under the wiper seal will indeed release the air, however the cause of the fault ( a negative seal head leak) will be there and the issue will arise again after a ride or two.

On a new fork the last thing you should do is try to fettle it yourself. Get it back to Rockshox for a warranty inspection. As a matter of course they'll likely replace all the air seals and replenish fluids. And they'll check/update any post production issues that have had rolling changes.

This is the max travel I have:

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If I set the sag correctly for my weight and then take the weight of the bike off the fork I measure the stanchion at 170mm. however looking at the above pic with the O ring showing the max travel Im losing about 5-6mm of travel overall.

Why would you want to smash the seals into the crown at bottom out?

I wouldn’t expect to get anywhere near full travel on a 170 fork at a trail centre and have the bike ride decently.

A common misconception with a harsh feeling fork is to reduce pressure and compression but all you’re doing there is getting into the progressive part of the stroke sooner and have no hydraulic help to hold you up, it’ll also slow you’re rebound down making the fork not able to recover after bumps correctly

5-6mm is the wheelhouse of the bottom out bumper

Soooo..... The fork was sent off for warranty and RS have come back saying it needs a new CSU and air spring.... Delivery forecast on them is 22/12/22 !!!!!

Not the bike shops fault at all (big shout out to Race co for helping me out !!) but a bit peeved that my £1120 fork is toast after less than 150miles.

You'd think that RS would just replace them.

At less than 6 months old the fault is assumed to be manufacturing fault. They get one attempt to repair at their cost if that does not work then they have to replace. Thats how the law works

However the delay in repairing them must be "reasonable" Is a month turnaround reasonable? ( not that I believe the parts will be there in a month) Thats the point of debate. Borderline would be my opinion

The forks were fitted to my bike at the end of June, rode once and then the bike was laid up due to me having open heart surgery. I only got back on the bike in September so they've had very little use.

I dont think over a month is reasonable to wait. Not sure others will agree but thats just my thoughts.

You’d think that RS would just replace them.

They likely don't have any in stock to replace them with.

They likely don’t have any in stock to replace them with.

You could be right, in that case would it be reasonable to ask for a refund?

rode once and then the bike was laid up due to me having open heart surgery.

Bloody hell ! Should you really be riding hard enough to use up all the travel on a 170mm after such an operation ?.

I have a suspicion that you've not been completely honest on your riding with your doctor 😆

SO just to update.

Fork was sent back under warranty and the whole fork apart from the lowers was replaced.

First ride today and initially it felt ok but by the end of the ride is was pretty solid and just rattling me to bits.

I had a shockwiz fitted and after every session it was telling me to take off more HSC, I had wound it right off after the first trail.

I even got Paul who I was riding with to have a go and he agreed its pretty rubbish. He has the 2022 Zeb ultimate and its amazing how supple and plush his is compared.

What are my options here now. I bought it in June and its been back once for warranty which doesn't seem to have fixed the issues?

I would just add (being said Paul), I rode Steve's fork/bike, while he was recovering from heart surgery, and they felt as good as my 22 Zeb's. I was actually testing the frame sizing, so didn't play with about with the forks, they just worked well. We now have the same bikes but I have '22 vs his '23 Zeb Ultimate forks, and yesterday trying his bike, the initially or lack of any movement in the travel made them feel like completely rigid forks. They feel crap, not what I hope for a newly warranty repaired fork & extremely disappointing for Steve.

If they swapped everything except the lowers,presumably that means the bushings (that are fitted in the lowers) have not been replaced/resized?

Assuming that to be the case it can only be that the bushings are too tight.

That doesnt explain how the forks felt fine today initially ,but got worse throughout the ride though.

I would just add (being said Paul), I rode Steve’s fork/bike, while he was recovering from heart surgery, and they felt as good as my 22 Zeb’s.

So they were working fine before renton sent them back, and now they have come back worse? Im confused.....why were they sent back if they were fine?

No, where do you get that idea? When I borrowed them they were fine, I borrowed them while he was recovering & when he returned to riding, they worked without issue but then got progressively worse ride after ride, and so sent them to be look at by SRAM (or Mr. Butter @ Race Co very kindly sent them back). We got to bottom of a trail yesterday and I could see they were sitting much lower into their travel than normal & then tried them a couple of times & they are awful.

No, where do you get that idea?

Your bit of text i quoted in my post.

Never mind though,did they replace or resIze the bushings as part of the warranty work?

I think as far as your consumer rights (which are different to any manufacturer warranty terms) you need to go back to the place they were bought from,have a read of this.

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

I suspect that even though the manufacturer has already had one go at repairing them, in terms of consumer rights you need to give the original vendor one attempt to repair them before you ask them to replace them under the consumer rights act.

I don't see my comment, suggests he sent them back for no reason? But yes NM

Apparently, the lower bushing cannot be replaced or resized on 23's.
I wasn't aware of the, Steve said he was told this

I know it's not been possible to replace Rockshox fork bushings for a while. Not sure why they can't be resized if they're too tight. Isn't it just a case of running the correct sized mandrel down there?

That doesnt explain how the forks felt fine today initially ,but got worse throughout the ride though.

It does, if the bushes are too tight then the oil at the top of the fork will get squeezed out of them as you ride and never be replenished as the bushes don't allow new lubrication past them as they are too tight. The splash oil gets scraped off the stanchion by the lower bush and never makes it to where it's needed.

It does, if the bushes are too tight then the oil at the top of the fork will get squeezed out of them as you ride and never be replenished as the bushes don’t allow new lubrication past them as they are too tight. The splash oil gets scraped off the stanchion by the lower bush and never makes it to where it’s needed.

That makes sense. Initially they felt fine yesterday but did get progressively worse until the end of the ride when they felt awful. I had cramp in my hands and forearms by the end of the ride. on one section Paul and I swapped bikes as a comparison and his Zeb was just soaking everything up and mine was just pinging off everything.

I've sent the original retailer an email and will follow up tomorrow with a call. I know sending them back to SRAM via a different retailer probably hasn't helped in this case but will see what they say.

Thinking about this..... its been getting worse as the temperature has dropped? Coincidence or not relevant?

SRAM have to follow the company line from the crib sheet. What you need is somewhere that understands suspension to get this resolved for you.

As I said a few posts up and so did the other chap - bushes are tight.

Temperature does have an effect on the tightness of the due to the differing CTE's (thermal expansion coefficient) of the metal. The lower leg is cast magnesium and exposed to ambient air temp. The stanchion containing air piston is aluminium. As the air is compressed in the air piston it heats up expanding the stanchion ever so slightly. The magnesium lower fork legs will shrink (again ever so slightly) in diameter (as exposed to cold air) tightening the fit and making bushes even tighter.

All my RS forks with right bushings felt much better in the summer and terrible in the winter