[Closed] 2017 TT'ing thread

Quite tempted to stick some TT bars on and have a go at a 10 mile TT.

If one was to have a go, what event would you recommend for a newbie? (West London).

nathb
Quite tempted to stick some TT bars on and have a go at a 10 mile TT.
If one was to have a go, what event would you recommend for a newbie? (West London).

.. duplicate

I will do our clubs 10M TT, here is the course. Not sure if anything other than a road bike is required as its pretty much all uphill! any views? https://www.strava.com/segments/3914923?hl=en-GB

You've just missed the Gil Jessop Memorial Sporting 14 on Sunday morning last. It was fairly bracing.

nathb, events page of LWDC lists local club events...

http://www.lwdc.co.uk/Events/Default.aspx

Nothing up there yet as it's very early and most clubs haven't published calendars yet. They run evening time trials round Hillingdon I believe which may tickle your fancy.

If you're a member of a club you can generally just rock up and do any other club event, or enter an open event via [url= https://cyclingtimetrials.org.uk ]ctt website[/url]. If you're not a member of a club you may need to go for a "come and try it" event that clubs run, depends how fussy they are (probably an insurance thing!)

I'll be doing our club 10s, although they start early May so a while away yet. Other clubs prob start earlier so I'll keep my eye out.

My goal is modest - want to do 24 min. 25mph av sounds like a decent benchmark for a club cyclist, plus our course is pretty honest, so if I can hit that I'll be happy. I was nearly a minute off that last season so it will demand some improvement.

Might try a 25 but have a bit of trepidation - hurting your legs and lungs is one thing, hurting your own ballsack is a different matter. Just seems like a tough body position to hold for extended periods. Obv one must get used to it.

Few local 10's for me, possibly a 25, but nothing more.
Road bike in TT mode for me= Carbon wheels & Aeroshell on my helmet.

nathb - Member

If one was to have a go, what event would you recommend for a newbie? (West London).

The Westlerly TT's are probably what you want and are run at Hillingdon. Google Westerley CC. I'll be there when I can.

No specific targets other than going faster at Hillingdon, although with a TT bike now my setup has changed. I'm spending some time at Velopark next seturday to get some setup done, although i did two turbo session plus fettling on the bike this weekend.

I've put all the SPOCO events in my diary, but TT will play second fiddle to MTB race and remain "fun" threshold/VO2max workouts for me.

P.S. Feel free to join us: https://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/race-details/14891

Sub 22 for a 10 is my aim, I was getting close last season and bike position was the most sorted I'd had it. Then I bought a new bike and didn't get all the measurements from the old one 😳 ....

Thanks mrblobby & kryton57 - I'll check those out.

TT'ing around Hillingdon does sound more appealing than the open road.

Fancy a crack at one or 2 this year but have never indulged before.

Serious question, do you just find out where your local one is and head up? Or do you need to contact people/book a place in advance?

TT'ing around Hillingdon does sound more appealing than the open road.

Not that I don't like it becuase I do, but it can be a bit crowded, you do have to be aware of whose around / coming up fast which is an issue when you don't want to turn your head/your pushing hard.

I did a dual carriageway on the A1 early in the morning, that was awesome as you pretty much have yourself to yourself for 2 long stretches with marshals securing your transition around the on/off ramp as you turn around. I enjoyed that.

Serious question, do you just find out where your local one is and head up? Or do you need to contact people/book a place in advance?

Pretty much for a club event. I'd recommend just dropping them a note (most of them have facebook pages) asking if it's ok for non-members and checking on parking and sign on.

For open events it's all a bit more serious. You have to enter in advance (usually at least a couple of weeks ahead of the event) on the CyclingTimeTrials web site.

I'd love a go at TT'ing, and the local clubs round here run a great Wednesday night series, but I fear my FTP of ~230W isn't conducive to flat TT's 🙁

May get a set of clip on's and have a go anyway just for a giggle.

I'm not really interested in TTing but suspect I might have a go at one our clubs 10 milers at some point this year - but only if I can persuade someone even slower than me to have a go, as I very much doubt I'll break 30 minutes.

This is the course my club uses: https://www.strava.com/segments/7003895

I'd love a go at TT'ing, and the local clubs round here run a great Wednesday night series, but I fear my FTP of ~230W isn't conducive to flat TT's

May get a set of clip on's and have a go anyway just for a giggle.

First, you are only racing yourself. Second its not just about FTP its about how you use it. I have a relatively low FTP or w/kg for a racing type, but once i profiled my power (Hunter /Allen test) you learn how to use your strenghts and weaknesses in training and racing.

you learn how to use your strenghts and weaknesses

Strength:
https://www.strava.com/segments/1338508

Weakness:
https://www.strava.com/segments/7006059

Not many TT's up 4000ft climbs near me though!

I guess this one would be about as good as it gets for me:
http://www.dunfermlinecc.com/tt

Fifeandy, early season races are usually sporting courses (typically hilly twisty country lanes) and late season come the hill climbs.

I'm a bit late to the thread, but I'll be TTing again this year. Probably my main focus for the year. I've got a TT bike fit pencilled in so hopefully I should be able to find a more sustainable position (I can get into what seems to be a relatively fast position for 10s but can't hold it for anything longer).

In terms of targets I'd like to get below 23 minutes for 10 miles (PB 23:17), improve my 25 and 50 times, and more importantly get to the finish of the national TTT with my teammates. None of us have ever done a 3 up before (and 2 of us have never done a 2 up) so it's very much a learning experience between now and June. We've got our first TTT training session next weekend, but we're starting on road bikes.

Will be riding the Westerly's, Hounslow 10s on the sporting course and some West London Combines I think. I've been meaning to take it a bit more seriously. I'm really a 25 and longer rider, having achieved my sub-hour on a sporting course last year.

And looking for a disc wheel makes me think a bit more seriously, I guess!

Any better advice on Aero bottles that the Elite Chrono kit for £25?

If you're not doing over a 25 don't bother with a bottle oand if you do need one just use a normal bottle

Probably just a few club 10's for me this year. The kid's cycling has virtually put a stop to me doing anything meaningful. One of them rode the Revolution series over the winter, so that meant trips to Glasgow, Manchester (several times) and London. On top of that there have been early season races to grab points for National series races plus training in Newport.....

Because of my limited time I have been doing a cycling specific weights program over winter with only a couple of 2 hour rides (plus a bit of short commuting). This has probably been the least cycling I have done in a winter for a long time. Having never done weights before it will be interesting to see how I go once I top up with some intervals.

Last year this time I was getting ready for my first TT of the season, tomorrow I will be going out for a MTB ride instead.

Yep I'm in, this year sees the arrival of #2 so I'll be happy if I can just make it to a couple. Pb is currently a short 25 on a 10 on a slow course so should be easily beaten if I get a chance.

I'll be trying out the local 10 miler. Recently moved from Loughborough down to Taunton and there seems to be a lot less in the way of TTs down here.

Gosh, already? Hope everyone's 3cm compliant!

I WILL do a 12hr this year.

Hope everyone's 3cm compliant!

😆 there's going to be even more comedy bickering over at TTF once the season gets going 🙄

FWIW not measured but think I'm ok. I know many who weren't last season though, will be interesting to see what they do, new frame or position change, or just carry on ignoring the rule.

And don't forget to sign out at opens either!

With regard to bottles, i thought carryimg a bottle - albeit empty - was supposedly more aero?

Whats this 3cm thing then?

Kryton, a quite good summary of the state of affairs here...

https://ade2010lejog.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/opening-a-can-of-worms-3cm-rule/

I have a TT bike fit booked so will try to make sure the 3cm rule is taken into account...

Also looking at wheels at the moment. So far I've just used road wheels but I bought a 2nd hand disc at the end of last season and now want a deeper front (and maybe a rear for non disc days) to go with it.

Unless your riding very sporting tt's why would you take a disc off the rear? It's not going to be effected by side winds. I had a PX deep section on the rear of my tt bike then I got a disc I never used it again.

In a wave of autumnal enthusiasm i bought a TT frame. Time oressures mean that although its assembled i havnt ridden it yet. Im not sure on the 'fit'. What should i be trying to achieve? Im quite happy getting comfortable on a road or mtb, but im not sure quite where i should be and how to get there...

Anyone point me to a decent resource so i can get somewhere near on the position?

Have a look at the "Bike Position" section in this post...

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/07/tt-rider-rod-and-bikefitter-discuss-the-secret-of-speed/

Many just start with the limitations of the rules (i.e. 5cm and 3cm) if it's workable for you and evolve from there.

It may be worth fully documenting your existing road position (using something like Bike Fast Fit) to see where you currently are in terms of angles. TT position is often simplistically explained as your road position but with everything rotated forwards a bit (it's not really but it's not a bad way to start thinking about it.)

Ok ace, thank you!

Delayed start to the racing season for me. Usually race this following weekend in the Rossendale Hilly in the Forest of Bowland, but it's intercounty squash weekend this year so squash in Eton instead!

Second traditional early season event, the Hemel Hilly, is out too as I've been persuaded to do the Tour of Flanders sportive...should be fun on average 2.5 hours a week!

So, not sure when the first race of the season will be for me! Time to scour the listings!

Time to scour the listings!

Just been doing that, then checked against the family calendar to find that Mrs B's arranging has us busy most weekends from May through to September. Looks like it's going to be mostly evening club events for me. I need to change to a sport that races in winter 🙁

One that stands out and I am free for is the Charlotteville 50. Not done a 50. Might be fun.

I had a good day at Velopark Saturday, ending up with my saddle 5mm higher than my road bike, forward 2cm and the TT extensions angled very slightly upward - about 3-4 degress from horizontal.

I also played with pacing strategy, with my lap times better pushing harder on hills and holding back on the flat/down vs constants watts. I clocked about 32 miles around the circuit on the extensions, a 62.5mile ride overall. Happy with a 38.5kmph lap (its very twisty) with Helmet & winter gloves but no skinsuit or shoe covers 🙂

Neck and shoulders were aching afterward though, but seeing as I'm going only as long as 25's this year I can cope.

Anyone know what's up with the VTTA? Nothing on their web site. I did email someone about it and never got a reply. Perhaps there's no-one there young enough to have heard of the internet?

Might be fun.

Might not be. Painful cos it's the longest distance that you go 'hard' for.

Might not be. Painful cos it's the longest distance that you go 'hard' for.

Well yes, what I really meant is that it's most likely to be hideous 🙂

Neck and shoulders were aching afterward though, but seeing as I'm going only as long as 25's this year I can cope.

a. Ride more in the position and it will hurt less.
b. I found supporting myself closer to elbows on pads rather than forearms enabled me to 'brace' myself more using skeletal strength, rather than muscular, and made it less painful 🙂

Well yes, what I really meant is that it's most likely to be hideous

I've never felt so good straight after the 50 I did!

I've also never felt so unbelievably wrecked and broken as I did 15 minutes after the 50 as soon as I sat down in the car!

Can I ask, does anyone use anything other than safety pins to attached their numbers??

I've seen nopinz are able to retrofit a speedpocket into the back of a skinsuit, but I've seen suggestions of spray adhesive or magnets to avoid using pins and having flappy numbers/pinholed suits??

NoPinz speedpocket here.

After doing a concerted effort last year on my roadbike with clip ons and really enjoying it I thought I'd better get round to buying a dedicated bike for the job. Couldn't afford a new one so kept a lookout in the second hand market and a Cannondale slice came up. It'd only done 150miles so was virtually brand new for a bargaintastic £650. Ok it's not UCI legal but I doubt I'll be entering any British champs soon so it's not really an issue. After my first ride I knew it was in desperate need of some upgrades but because I got it for a song I could afford some, namely a set of PDQ bars and some half decent wheels. After saving up the wings I've ended up with this :
[URL= http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-03/6FC53525-4CAF-4B26-ADFA-50932B658CFA_zpscuxwvnkd.jp g" target="_blank">http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-03/6FC53525-4CAF-4B26-ADFA-50932B658CFA_zpscuxwvnkd.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
All in its cost me £1400 so quite happy with that. After doing the last two weeks on the turbo getting used to the position I had my first two outings on it this weekend, yesterday was the NLTTA 10miler in gusty conditions and did the Tour of Pendle today, a 27 mile hilly spocco in typical early season TT conditions. As in bloody cold, wet and wind ! Anyway on Saturday I came first in V40, 8th overall (out of 116) and today's spoco I finished 3rd overall out of 50 odd starters. Very happy with that considering after looking at yesterday's pic of me I REALLY need to work on my position. Looking at my head if I was in the trenches during WW 1 I'd of had my head blown off with it sticking up like this :
[URL= http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-03/31B14D93-600A-491D-93EA-6F1E48875A0F_zps25r1cwon.jp g" target="_blank">http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-03/31B14D93-600A-491D-93EA-6F1E48875A0F_zps25r1cwon.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Good work 🙂

First race of the season for me yesterday - city rc 3 up in Beverley. We were the only all ladies team and it was our first outing together. Only one of us had even done a 2 up before let alone a 3 up! All on road bikes with no aero kit and we were mainly just training and learning how to work together rather than racing. Went off a bit hard and popped our weakest member at about 10 miles so had to nurse her home but it's all about learning from our mistakes so better to do it now than in the nationals! (Really local to us so we're putting a team in just to be there)

In my enthusiam I asked for and recieved an Elite aero bottle for my birthday. Its proporietary mounts mean no bottle stash for a tube/levers - where are you chaps putting them?

First time on the new budget boardman tomorrow on F7/10E - lumpy!

Kryton57 - Member

In my enthusiam I asked for and recieved an Elite aero bottle for my birthday. Its proporietary mounts mean no bottle stash for a tube/levers - where are you chaps putting them?

Put them in a small bag and use a toeclip strap to secure them up inside the saddle (between the rails) - old school!

Some aero helmets have a void in the tail that can be used. Not sure I would be particularly happy with that, but some people do it.

First solo TT of the season has been delayed for me. Entered an event via the ctt website for the 18th and got the email confirmation through that my payment had been successful but then the system seems to have lost the record, it never made it to the organiser and now the start sheet has been published it's too late. Not the organiser's fault, but trying to get to the bottom of what happened is a bit frustrating!

TT bike fit tomorrow.

Wahoooo can't wait to start racing again! Raced last weekend on my road bike coz the weather was shite and I've come to the conclusion the TTs on road bikes are not in the slightest bit fun, so i wont be doing that again any time soon.

Aims for this season are to:
- spent more time training on my TT bike than my road bike.
- ride more local/sporting courses than big fast DCs (last season was my first on a TT bike and i couldn't resist the allure of the fast courses)
- win an open
- and (dare I say it...) do an 18

Aim for the sky and all that....

Anyone coming to the RDFCC's open 25 next weekend?

@bjj.andy.w - position doesn't look [i]too[/i] bad, I've seen worse. Looks like a bargain for the initial £650!

Why's it not UCI legal? Surely thats more due to adjustement of saddle, bars etc than the inherent frame design?

An odd day for me. We were started earlier rushing my partner onto the bike. I took the lead out and settled, then a few minutes later hit a pothole as he can round me and my helmet fell over my eyes - I need to sort that out.

I got back on the wheel and then al went well until the 3rd turn left on a mini roundabout where we found and old lady with a Shetland pony and cart with an M3 support car blocking the the exit - we came to a standstill!

The last 3 mile was all uphill - not my strength - so I focused on cadence and HR only to drop my partner. Slower to let him catch and then as I turned myself inside out for the line dropped him again.

Anyway, a mess which cost us. We did catch and pass our 2 & 6 minute men.

Has anyone got any experience of a Spiuk Azeila Helmet? After a few beers with the rugby and the above incident i quickly pressed go on a half price one at Merlin, due the comments about excellent adjustment.

Seems to have mixed reviews - good in the Tri sites and "slow" on the TT sites, im wondering if at my level of investment in TT the speed really matters if i can see where im going...

Giro Selector for sale soon...

@bjj.andy.w - position doesn't look too bad, I've seen worse. Looks like a bargain for the initial £650!

Why's it not UCI legal? Surely thats more due to adjustement of saddle, bars etc than the inherent frame design?

Rode H25/4 today in the West London Combine. A 20 mph wind made for slow times but a PB for myself and nite out of 70-odd. I need to work on pacing, as this felt a bit too easy the course is a lot faster than the sporting club course.

Powerpod gave a good account of itself after a windy calibration ride at Hillingdon, where I was almost blown off! Corsa Speed wheels felt very fast and the steel frame very errr comfortable.

Great result mate! Well done!

Nicest part was when the time keeper asked me on the line "What's that made of then?" Columbus Air Steel of course was my reply 8)

And here's a picture from Friday at Hillingdon with the new fast tyres

[img] ?oh=f01d58a33ed3015e0333038c474d0caa&oe=592701D5[/img]

Did the spoco I mentioned in my previous post on Sunday in horrendous conditions, 22mph winds with gusts of up to 40 along with lots and lots of rain. In fact I was drenched doing the warm up. Had a big tailwind for the first half but then it was horrible head/cross wind for the last 10miles. After being blown across the road for the umpteenth time I was beginning to think having a deep section wheel on the front was a bad idea. Anyway I somehow managed to make it back in one piece and came in with 54:35 over the 21.6 miles, coming 6th overall and first V40. Thought I did quite well then James Gullen rolled up and smashed the course record with 48:11. The guy is an absolute animal !

First one of the year for me today, NHRC's sporting 18. Testing on fixed, but a good honest course.

Few tweaks for 2017:

[img] ?w=1024&s=542fb4618f82c662937908b062902a0a[/img]

V810 last week - i went for the non-aero category so nothing special just remembering how to ride hard for 10 miles.

Took the TT bike out for the first time since September today (have used it a bit on the turbo). Just a gentle spin round v212 (no event on, just a training ride) to get a feel for the new position.

Bunch races tomorrow and next week but I'll be back on this thread after that...

Is anyone an ECCA club member? Anyone planning to ride anything in the ECCA Festival? (May Bank Hol)

Did The circuit of the Dales last Sunday, a hilly 50miler around the roads of Inglebourgh, Kirkby Lonsdale, Sedbergh and Hawes. Unfortunately there was 3 sets of traffic lights due to resurfacing the roads but they were well marshalled so anyone who had to stop had their time amended at the end. Hardly ideal but due to it being cancelled last year for the same reason I think the organisers really wanted it to go ahead. Didn't have the best of rides tbh, the inability to use my inner ring (why the hell I decided to change my chain the night before I'll never know ) on what's probably one of the hilliest TT's I've done (4000ft) made some of the climbs rather hard ! Coming out Hawes on 52/23 was horrible, I think my knees are still not taking to me 😆 A stoppage to put a dropped chain back on then a slow puncture on my front tub near the end completed my day of misery. Did the course in 2hr 15min, coming in 14th. My only crumb of comfort was I managed to hold off Alister Brownlee (of the Brownlee brothers triathlon fame) who started 2mins after me for 20 miles.

I’m in the process of setting up my tt bike. What is acceptable in terms of power loss for aero gains? Have only done limited time on the bike as saddle is too wide but other than that, it feels ok but unless I sit up, I can only put out tempo watts, so roughly 50w down on threshold – but power is there when I sit up. Seems a massive power loss?! Tempo watts felt harder than it would on the road bike (usually my default pace is tempo as I love riding tempo) and like I was only using my quads.

Can't post photo for some reason but links to photo taken during bike fit.

[url=

View this post on Instagram

What is acceptable in terms of power loss for aero gains?

It's whatever tests as being the quickest.

Most will be down on power in their TT position. How much depends on a number of factors. Your angles will all be tighter and your breathing will be more restricted, you need a lot of time in position to adapt to it.

If you're just starting out on a TT bike then I'd not worry too much initially about a big power loss and just start getting the miles in and adapting to the position.

You might want to soften your position a bit, maybe not as narrow and open the angles up a bit more, while you start to adapt. You'll likely be a bit slower but it'll be easier and less dispiriting to get the miles in. And TT position is something that'll be constantly evolving anyway (and you'll probably find that as you adapt you'll evolve your road bike position to be more aero too.)

FWIW I'm about 15% down on power between the road and TT bike on a 10. And that's after a couple of seasons of racing the TT bike and a winter doing much of my turbo work in TT position.

What is acceptable in terms of power loss for aero gains?

No point having the most aero position if you can't actually pedal it! I recently narrowed my bars 2cm and flattened them a little. It took little more than 15 minutes to work out that this was never going to work; I could barely ride on the aerobars at all. This despite having ridden a 25 in the previous position with zero discomfort a week earlier. Now they are back to slightly wider and angled up (but still UCI 10cm compliant). You can trade a degree of discomfort for time in a 10, but nothing longer.

The TT position is meant to rotate the body whilst preserving the relative position of the rider compared with their road position. The 5cm UCI saddle setback to bottom bracket rule, means that a shorter saddle is normally required. Also, traditional road frames don't have a steep enough seat tube to get to this position properly - my TT bike has 73 degree seat tube so I have a Thompson laid back seat post rotated 180 degrees to accomplish this (and an Fizik Ares saddle to satisfy the 5cm rule).

Often the compromise/default solution is road bike saddle position, maybe slammed forward on the rails with low TT bars. In my experience, this is a recipe for discomfort and inability to apply power because you have not rotated your position, you have just leaned over further to reach the bars - hence power down.

Your position looks pretty good. Can you move the saddle up and forwards? That will open up the hips more akin to your road position. It will also lower your head more to increase aero, so you need to tilt your head up for vision - I always have to look over my glasses and under the lip of my helmet.

My power on the TT bike is really little different to the road bike. Will see tonight at the first Hillingdon ten-and-a-bit

I'm a big fan of layback on a TT bike.

Yes, but your T3 has a [url= http://mx.cervelo.com/media/docs/T3-Geometry-0410c42a-cf45-4c73-b159-0f24b647fb59-0.pdf ]seat tube angle of 78 degrees[/url] with the seatpost as mounted. Some setback based on that angle is entirely consistent with my fitting guide.

Try the same set back on a road bike and see how it compares.

Interesting, thanks both.

TiRed, not sure if saddle can go further forward but it is on my list to check and move forward – I think I had been sitting on the tt saddle like a road bike saddle ie too far back. I suspect saddle is too wide as well but until I move it forward I can’t check it properly. I think it feels like I have a bit much weight on my arms – any thoughts about what to change based on that?

I use the 74 degree position. Why are you concerned about UCI compliance?

Success in any TT position requires adaptation.

Why are you concerned about UCI compliance?

Some of my TTs are BC not CTT (stage race and TTTs) and ridden under UCI regulations. And I think it is helpful to compete on a like-for-like basis. I also found it a lot more comfortable 🙂

any thoughts about what to change based on that

It's not a road bike position, but it is a rotated road bike position (hip angle similar).

Bizarre ride on E91/25 this morning reduced to 15m.

First my new Spiuk Aizea fell to pieces in the car park - stats confirmed as "shite". As I ignored that an set off ok, and thought I was going well on and gently sloping down out, up back. But ultimately my legs were burning on the way back and I came in at 40:11 not setting the world alight, 44 of 50 in the results.

Again I've averaged >10% below FTP, which I understand is normal for the TT position. I am carrying a tweak to my quad but I didn't feel it affected me. Better pacing maybe, but always the riders on the other side of the road coming back seemed calm where I'm fighting inner mental turmoil!

TT is all mental. Rode the Great missenden 25 last Sunday. Hardly got into zone 4 but managed a PB of 58 minutes on a rolling course. Pulled a muscle in the derriere too, but it's held up for two circuit races this week.

Was caught by my clubmate and minuteman, but he was on a disc wheel and had me to pace him for the whole ride. I had nobody having passed a few riders and ended in a big gap. Still we had fun racing the last couple of miles.

Looking for a disc wheel now, and some fast open events.

Westerly ten and a bit this Wednesday and my target is sub 23 min.

How much of a difference would a disc (or a disc cover, I'm skint after building my TT bike up) make compared to my 80 deep section I'm running atm? I know it's one of those how long is a piece of string questions but any time savings are always appreciated !
Did another hilly spoco last weekend, The circuit of wild boar fell in glorious weather. In fact it was one of those courses you'd just want to ride to take in the views rather than going into a whole world of pain and staring at your Garmin. Certainly beats any dual carriageway I've been on !
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Came 8th overall and second in vet so a much better result compared to the week before.
Think I'm finally getting there with regards to my position now, swapped the spacers round on my stem to lower the handlebars, taken one set of spacers off the PDQ's, moved the saddle back slightly and put some USE 30 deg bars on (reversed) and this is the outcome
[URL= http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-04/ABA502E4-CD22-45C1-B221-F5FEB423767A_zpst4msxe02.jp g" target="_blank">http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-04/ABA502E4-CD22-45C1-B221-F5FEB423767A_zpst4msxe02.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
[URL= http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-03/73E6B9FA-DA29-4FEC-A204-A887ADC16DAE_zps9p3dyjce.jp g" target="_blank">http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-03/73E6B9FA-DA29-4FEC-A204-A887ADC16DAE_zps9p3dyjce.jp g"/> ~original[/IMG][/URL]
Quite a difference compared to my first ride out on it on the previous page. Now, if only I can find another 50w 😆

Royal Dean Forest CC season starts week after next with a come and try it 6 miler. All welcome.