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Wowzers.
YEEEEESSSSS!!!!
Jesus.
He deserves that medal!
Yes!
heartstoppingtastic
Stunning ride there, thought he was in trouble with a lap to go.
Yes!
Oops I just woke the baby
Right, get the news on, we know the result now.
What
A
Ride
The boy's a machine.
Absolutely masterful in the end. He was so cool there, knew he could do it. Absolutely smashed them.
Thier Christmas tree will have 10 rather special decorations...
Careful Boardman. There'll be letters.
Cav and the lady sprinters let the side down by 'only' winning silvers in their events. 😈
How much will British Cycling be paying him and his mrs to breed?
Never watched this type of cycling before, what a strange sport 😯
Some people on their racers ride round behind an e bike for 3/4 of the race then only race hard for a couple of laps 😕 Good effort though to keep his nerve and win after that shambles 8)
He's got his kit in a bag for life!
[quote=MarkBrewer ]Some people on their racers ride round behind an e bike for 3/4 of the race then only race hard for a couple of laps
The point is to reduce it just to the high speed sprint part of the race by getting rid of all of the tactical messing around you get in the first couple of laps in the individual sprint (what the women were doing a little earlier). Does a fairly good job of that - not sure how else they could set that up.
Trott/Kenny are 13th in the medal table
[quote=mrhoppy ]Cav and the lady sprinters let the side down by 'only' winning silvers in their events.
Yeah, bloody useless that Cav bloke - I mean has he ever won a cycling race?
I wonder if the FA would like to ask British Cycling/Team GB a thing or two about bringing a sport from grassroots up to world-smashing absolute dominance before the next few world cups!
Kenny-Trott household now 13th in medal table. Fantastic!
That track medal table....... no wonder everyone thinks we're on something.
I wonder if Shane Sutton is watching?
^^ Head Coach said he was sure he would be and that he had resigned for the good of the team to allow them to focus on the games. I wonder who the dissafected sprinter thought she should have been selected ahead of ?
As well as not instead of.
its getting harder to get in our track team than win the Olympics 😯
WOW
When i was a kid we only had Boardman and before him Millar now look at us
TdF, Own the track..... Its ****ing great
That track medal table....... no wonder everyone thinks we're on something.
Must have been on the same stuff in 2012. Worth watching the GCN show from last night where they give some background to why GB are doing well.
- Lottery funding started 20 years ago targeting track cycling and rowing.
- Getting into schools and selecting candidates (who may not even have done cycling)
- The best coaches
- More money for research, leading to marginal gains etc,.
- And funding based on success - more medals keeps the funding
All makes sense. If I wanted to win the Olympics I would pick sports that have no dominance or mass popularity i.e. I would stay out of things like track and field (100m, 200M etc,)
Junkyard - lazarus
...When i was a kid we only had Boardman and before him Millar now look at usTdF, Own the track..... Its **** great
Brilliant results.
Back then we wasted talents like Obree because they didn't fit the system.
Do you think Obree would fit the BC system now?
It'd be nice to think so, but they do seem a bit "our way or the highway" - and he is a real one-off.
Getting into schools and selecting candidates (who may not even have done cycling)
So how can they identify the talented future prospects?
Physical attributes? Fitness? Mental toughness?
Never watched this type of cycling before, what a strange sport
No stranger than any other sport and certainly no stranger than riding round a trail centre 😉
Let's not forget the Revolution series that allows teenage club riders to experience a full size crowd in a proper velodrome at an early age. Those with a head for competition shine and get to mix with the GB team and the pros. I watched Adam Blythe do this ten years ago (for example).
Never watched this type of cycling before, what a strange sport
My theory is that they are all games you played on your bike as a kid. The Keirin is the chase the delivery scooter until it turns off and sprint to the next lamppost game, and the elimination race is the laps around the block - last one's out game. Simple, that's why they are great to watch.
I do like Boardmans commentry. When Kenny won and Trott was very emotional, Boardman's comment was that she clearly does the emotion for both of them and he just wants to know whats for tea 😀
Up until last night I'd been wondering why the derny bike rider appeared to always be wearing a camelback. Now I know he was expecting it to go go on all night.
Do you think Obree would fit the BC system now?It'd be nice to think so, but they do seem a bit "our way or the highway" - and he is a real one-off.
I read Obree's biography recently - very interesting read and quite sad in places. It's possible he might have been better off given the constant support there would have been from a GB team like the current one, but it's just as likely he'd have rebelled.
No Olympic event for Obree nowadays (he was never a team pursuiter), though I also note that Cav just went faster than Obree ever did
So how can they identify the talented future prospects?
[b]Physical attributes?[/b] Fitness? Mental toughness?
Yup. They go round schools & clubs and ask the PE teachers/coaches who's good, and measure up the kids for who has the physique (I think this is more important for rowing).
PE teachers will have contacts in local clubs (esp. if it's their sport) for any shining stars. e.g. Mrs Dubleyou has spotted a couple of hockey players in her school that have got national league potential. They have been steered to the local clubs with the better youth programs.
Yup. They go round schools & clubs and ask the PE teachers/coaches who's good, and measure up the kids for who has the physique (I think this is more important for rowing).
That's how Jo Rowsell was picked up - talent spotted at her school in 2004 when she was 15/16.
By 2006 she was a National Champion on the track.
Our cyclists managed at least silver in all events entered. The only one missing was Women's Team Sprint which for some reason we didn't enter. 11 medals from 9 events on the track!
There must be some head scratching going on in the US and Australian camps. Awful results for them.
So how can they identify the talented future prospects?
Physical attributes? Fitness? Mental toughness?
Bit of everything. It's a different sport but Duncan Fletcher's book on the Ashes 2005 was quite interesting; about selecting players who could stand up to the mental pressure of McGrath and Warne and Lee and Hayden, and who wouldn't wilt under the pressure. Hence why Ramprakash wasn't successful but Collingwood was. That's what makes the difference.
I suspect there are quite a lot of kids with the right physical attributes, and identifying and selecting them can be done by the book on limb length and flexibility and VO2 max and.......
But to get up and go out before dawn on a frozen river or on a 6 hour bike ride or on a sprint session that leaves you throwing up from the effort, or wrenching all your joints into ridiculous places just so you can manage some prescribed gymnastic move - every day for years on end. To not have had a drink for 18 months, to be so tired that when you get an night off all you want to do is sleep. To give up everything that a young person would normally consider normal. Just because you want to be like Laura Trott or Kath Grainger or Max Whitlock and stand on the top step.
There's not many like that but we've got pretty good at identifying them. That's where the Germans and French should be looking, not at the contents of our piss pots but how big the bottle is.
Anyhoo enough of this weird velodrome stuff. BMX semi finals tomorrow and finals on Friday - bring it on!
Up until last night I'd been wondering why the derny bike rider appeared to always be wearing a camelback. Now I know he was expecting it to go go on all night.
I'm wondering why it needs massive triple crown suspension forks and big coil springs at the back for going around a smooth track?
Our cyclists managed at least silver in all events entered. The only one missing was Women's Team Sprint which for some reason we didn't enter.
I don't think Team GB qualified for it.
BMX
🙂
Anyhoo enough of this weird velodrome stuff. BMX semi finals tomorrow and finals on Friday - bring it on!
Did you see Jess Varnish's tweet - https://twitter.com/JessVarnish
"Jessica Varnish ?@JessVarnish 11h11 hours ago
Wow what a week in the Velodrome for @TeamGB Now it's over to the boys with beards on kids bikes
@theotherjonv has it nailed and Jess's tweet 😀
Elite althletes have to be special in many ways other than raw talent / speed / strength. Its an incredible pyramid from the 100,000's at decent junior / club level to the tiny handful on the elite / Oympic squads. London 2012 had the programe to find tall women and we found the cross country runner who went on to win a gold in rowing. Katy Marchant was a track and field althelte until 2013.
Rebecca Romero... silver medal rower in Athens, gold medal track cyclist in Beijing. If you've got the engine 🙂
Yep - Tony Minichello gave her up to BC as he felt she was suited more to that than to heptathlon.
And further to my post. To get to the olympics, or even to national squad level is a huge achievement. Whether you stand on the top step, or get knocked out in the first heat, you're bloody amazing. Don't let some whingeing Aussie tell you otherwise.
I'm wondering why it needs massive triple crown suspension forks
They seemed to have a negative effect on the steering, as he clearly couldn't get off the track quick enough.
London 2012 had the programe to find tall women and we found the cross country runner who went on to win a gold in rowing. Katy Marchant was a track and field althelte until 2013.
So how does the diminutive Laura Trott fit the mould? 5ft 4" but just so fast and efficient on the track
I'm wondering why it needs massive triple crown suspension forks and big coil springs at the back for going around a smooth track?
Same reason as the camelback, if you're going to be going round on it all bloody night you want to be comfy.
because height's an advantage in rowing (they're all 6foot plus, even the women - means they can do long strokes)
Not so in cycling, it's power to weight generally.
So how does the diminutive Laura Trott fit the mould? 5ft 4" but just so fast and efficient on the track
Clare Balding asked Chris Hoy this the other night.
Essentially he said it boiled down to power to weight, but a lot was to do with power to frontal area.
A big hefty rider may have more power output, but they need more power to push their body through the air. And a smaller rider can accelerate faster. So it all balances out.
Having met one of the UK Sport Performance Directors the reasons they selected track cycling and rowing was because there are more variables that they can measure, control and drive performance i.e. they can accurately predict the performance needed to succeed and understand/model the variables that influence it - a very scientific and analytical approach. They've now done that with BMX by building their own track. Trouble with MTB is that there are too many other variables, so harder to guarantee performance levels and investment.
Chris Hoy said it wasn't so much power to weight as power to frontal area since most energy is used in forcing the air out of the way. With LT being so small she could use her power more effectively plus she wouldn't provide as much shelter for the larger riders who tried to slipstream her.
At school rugby was the main winter sport, football was something we just did when messing about. There was a lad who'd gone to schoolboy trials for goal keeper for Man City but didn't make the grade. He was several levels above the rest of us, embarrassingly so, but he still wasn't good enough to get in to the initial pool. He almost knew where you were going to shoot before you did. Pretty well any sporting event you watch on the TV will be contested between competitors who've been selected from the select few selected from the select few.
In the case of the track cyclists they then have some brilliant backup to further improve those natural attributes: they'll know their power curves for a range of cadences and distances; etc.
mrblobby - Member
Rebecca Romero... silver medal rower in Athens, gold medal track cyclist in Beijing. If you've got the engine
What happened to her? She just seemed to drop out. I half expected her to pop up in another sport.
What happened to her? She just seemed to drop out. I half expected her to pop up in another sport.
They dropped the individual pursuit from the Olympics. Tried a few different things since ([url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Romero ]here[/url]).
Brailsford was on BBC Breakfast this am too, and as he said, identifying where you are and where you need to be and then what you need to get there is a key concept. So they'll have had a pretty good idea what time they think they needed to win TP for example. And then the process to 'find' those seconds starts. And it's not as simple as saying 'get x seconds faster' obviously; they'll then split out where the gains come from and if they then approach say an engineering firm and say to them 'can you make these bearings half a percent more efficient' then the answer is usually yes. Of course in the end you still need someone to work incredibly hard to ride the thing faster than anyone else.
I'm not denigrating the athletes that have just done so well - I'm bursting with pride for them all - but that's the *only* tempering factor for me. Whether it's 0.2% better skinsuits, 0.1% more aero handlebars, 0.2% rounder wheels or whatever - in the purest sense it's not just the athlete's ability. I know they've all reflected that as well in post race interviews, but the playing field maybe isn't quite level.
That's always been a part of it though, whenever you have some device you use as part of the sport then innovation is always going to play a part (be it swimsuits, shoes, paddles, racquets, guns, bikes, ...) Everyone is going to be looking to gain an advantage.
I'm sure TeamGB have an advantage in some areas (rounder wheels, hairier bushes, etc.) but then look at the innovation in the bikes that the US pursuit team had this year.
Rebecca Romero... silver medal rower in Athens, gold medal track cyclist in Beijing. If you've got the engine
What happened to her? She just seemed to drop out. I half expected her to pop up in another sport.
She pops in to see her mum (who lives near us) every now and again.
What happened to her? She just seemed to drop out. I half expected her to pop up in another sport.
I think she became a mother a couple of years ago and is enjoying a normal life (ie not getting up at 5am to go training - though she may still be getting up at 5am with small children).
If that is the case then I'm kind of happy for her. A normal life isn't a bad thing at all.
And then the process to 'find' those seconds starts.
Don't forget all the data analysts who will have been modelling TP finish time as a function of variables including pacing at each split. It was no coincidence that our TP teams did not just race off fast and try and hold on as their competitors tried. They started at the pace prescribed and stuck to the model to get the predicted time. Of course the fact that the predicted time was a World Record is an extra bonus.
Anyone else notice that the fastening on their shoes are outside of the wind on the bottom. Aero shoe covers aren't allowed on the track, so make the shoes aero 8) .
But I don't think there is anything special about the cervelo bikes, nor the wheels. It's the coaches, trainers and analysts that we should be pleased with. Any of the other riders, if fed into the BC system would have done the same.
Except Kenny. Sprint is just different to everything else. And he is faster. Wind tunnel-tested faster, of course.
but the playing field maybe isn't quite level.
It most definitely is not level. It never has been. Hence we were nowhere before funding and Olympic Medal grants for performance.
I agree, absolutely. Ultimately it comes down to hard work and ability across all the areas - best riders but also best coaches, nutritionists, etc. And while without a world class athlete on top you won't get anywhere; it's a real team effort, hence why that photo of the support staff on the podium after everyone else went home last night will probably be the one Sir dave has on the wall in his office.
So true what you say about modelling the TP splits versus capability and not 'racing' against the opposition. In the finals this year the only way the opposition would be able to beat us was to go out fast, make us panic and ride into the red and not execute effectively. But we stayed true and delivered.
Interesting when Wiggins or Froome did it in the TDF; know your power graph and ride to it 'diesel style' irrespective of what others did, knowing that you'd get back on - plenty said it was dull (I know Froome threw that book away this year as well)
In the finals this year the only way the opposition would be able to beat us was to go out fast
Actually the only way was really to execute [b]our [/b]pacing and hope that under the same conditions, their riders were stronger. That may actually have been true for the US team based on the World Championship results. Instead they decided to go off fast and hold on. Which they could not do. A result for my kind (paid up geek/analyst) 😆
Sagan... "no one knows what the hell to expect" 🙂
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/08/news/sagan-no-one-knows-what-the-hell-to-expect_418224
(... though I expect a mid-pack finish.)
In the finals this year the only way the opposition would be able to beat us was to go out fast
Team Pursuit tactics have changed massively in the last 4 Olympic cycles as well. It used to be a measure of success and pride that you finished with all 4 riders. Now they use up one in the first 2750m and bin him/her off.
It's no longer a race against the other team, it's a race against the clock - there just happens to be another team on the track as well which is more entertaining for the crowd and introduces another little tactical variable.
Catches are very rare now though since both teams are absolutely on the limit, really riding the edge of what is possible.
You look at Athens where the winning Men's TP time was 3.58. Beijing was 3.53 due to the tactic of using up Man 4.
Since then the timnes have been closer. London was 3.51, Rio was 3.50.
(Women's one is more difficult to gauge since they changed from 3 riders / 3km to 4 riders / 4km over that period as well.)
Team Pursuit tactics have changed massively in the last 4 Olympic cycles as well. It used to be a measure of success and pride that you finished with all 4 riders. Now they use up one in the first 2750m and bin him/her off.
I think it's changed a lot from a mentality of four individual 4000m pursuiters who are now a team, into a series of sprints within the race.
IIRC Cavendish was being considered for the team pursuit becuase of the srpinting aspect.
But yes, use the rule book to just get your first three riders around fastest even if that means burning one up in the first 3k.
Imagine how quick they'd be with chainsets on the left! Weren't the Americans saying it was saving them 2 seconds?! 🙄
And it's not as simple as saying 'get x seconds faster' obviously; they'll then split out where the gains come from and if they then approach say an engineering firm and say to them 'can you make these bearings half a percent more efficient' then the answer is usually yes. Of course in the end you still need someone to work incredibly hard to ride the thing faster than anyone else.
All of this 'marginal gains' stuff is bobbins.
It's the kind of science quackery that Derren Brown uses to sell his illusions.
Weren't the Americans saying it was saving them 2 seconds?!
Just think you stupid they could have looked.
Oh I also hear Vogel thinks the British performances are suspicious. I find her performance suspicious then.
There will already have been some performance modelling done in BC regarding the chainset. If there's any benefit, we'll see it widely adopted (until the UCI ban it). I expect there are other asymmetry aspects worth exploring too.
There will already have been some performance modelling done in BC regarding the chainset.
They did it 10 years ago. Just didn't tell anyone (and obviously social media wasn't what it is now for pictures to be shared instantly). No benefit found.
All of this 'marginal gains' stuff is bobbins.
In what way? Also, it's not "marginal gains", it's "aggregation of marginal gains".
You put 0.5% here, 5 watts there, a quarter of a second somewhere else and suddenly you've got a significant advantage.
F1 do exactly the same with car technology.
[quote=crazy-legs ]
There will already have been some performance modelling done in BC regarding the chainset.
They did it 10 years ago. Just didn't tell anyone (and obviously social media wasn't what it is now for pictures to be shared instantly). No benefit found.Aye, but even performance modelling has developed in the last 10 years. 😆
Speaking of bike tech, quite like the front of the NZ team's Avanti...
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/avanti-unveils-two-new-track-bikes-for-new-zealands-olympic-squad/
Funny about the forks. GB seemed to go for wide forks for their London bikes, now seem to be back to fairly narrow forks on the Cervelo.
Just be slightly wary of how her word might have been reported. The press love stuff like this.Oh I also hear Vogel thinks the British performances are suspicious.
Look at what they suggested Anna Mears said and then see what she actually said and what she restated this morning. All just hype.
All of this 'marginal gains' stuff is bobbins.In what way? Also, it's not "marginal gains", it's "aggregation of marginal gains".
Don't feed the troll, it's school holidays and he's bored.
All of this 'marginal gains' stuff is bobbins.
With a continuous endpoint (seconds for 4000m), it's called multivariate analysis. 8)
Level Playing Field. Professional (indeed any) sport is generally about trying to gain an advantage before the event starts, whether that's Olympic level prep or using xtr/lighter kit for an xc bike. Also of course training and tactics, its all about trying to start with the confidence that you will be the winner. IMO this is another area where lottery funding makes a huge difference as we have the budget to look for small gains, to follow up ideas / hunches and also to fund full time training partners, I know they do this in the sailing for example with the ladies training against top male (but below Olympic level) sailors with both having wages/accomodation etc paid
In what way? Also, it's not "marginal gains", it's "aggregation of marginal gains".
It's just daft. It's an appealing Sherlock Holmes style fantasy.
The size of pillows, hand washing techniques, the roundness of wheels, the fuzziness of gloves - none of these things explain how good athletes become unbeatable world beating athletes on a four-year cycle.
I think the 4 year cycle is a key point though. I can't recall where I've read it recently but one of the riders was essentially told to take 18 months off after the last Olympics. Presumably they were still being paid though...
If other nations are hand to mouth every year where a poor championship result means loss of funding etc then it could very quickly feel like being on a treadmill. If team GB acknowledges that it only matters once every 4 years and funds accordingly then they might have fresher (physically and mentally) athletes who peak at the right time.