You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
http://road.cc/content/news/86894-breaking-two-cyclists-killed-collision-lorry-a30-cornwall
and BBC stating they where doing a Lands End to John O Groats ride.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23143314
As its a dual carrigeway, they probably got hit from the rear, as opposed to a pullout accident.
Sincerest wishes to the families and freinds of these 2 fellow cyclists.
🙁
Saw that earlier, not good. HGV driver arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving. Looked like a straight stretch of road from the photos.
Shit
That's a nasty section of road on a bike, depending on the section either 2 or 3 lanes per carriageway, and people will be driving fast down it, especially at that time of day. It is pretty straight, but "Hamburger Hill" is coming up so people tend to try & get their speed up in anticipation of that, especially the HGV/LGV drivers.
Condolences to the families & loved ones of the cyclists
Just saw this - horrible.
😯by David_Longman
Tuesday, July 02 2013, 4:35PM
“I feel so sorry for the driver. I have nearly hit (and killed) several cyclists on this section of road and also on the dual carriageway sections towards Exeter. When there is a perfectly adequate 'old road' that cyclists could use much more safely, it is beyond me why they think it remotely safe to be on what is a quite fast section of major truck. These deaths are a result of the Highways Agency not banning cyclists from such roads. I extend my sincere sympathies to the families of the cyclists.”
Does that guy post on here?
It was only a matter of time before someone popped up on the comments saying something along those lines...
I feel so sorry for the driver. I have nearly hit (and killed) several cyclists on this section of road and also on the dual carriageway sections towards Exeter
It's really a very simple non-problem to deal with, all you have to do is not drive into them, in the same way you don't drive into the other cars, trucks, lamposts.
My sympathies to the families, never good to hear of a death on the roads, and it's always scarier when its close to your home.
by David_LongmanTuesday, July 02 2013, 4:35PM
“I feel so sorry for the driver. I have nearly hit (and killed) several cyclists on this section of road and also on the dual carriageway sections towards Exeter.
Well perhaps you can explain how you still have a licence if you have such a problem seeing moving objects, yet seem to be able to not hit other motorists, lamposts, traffic lights and other road furniture,along with pedestrians, and those nice policemen and VOSA operatives who will hopefully escort you to the nearest specsavers for a free eye test.and hopefully retraining.
The Highways agency dont make the laws of the road, that is down to the dept for transport or the local authority.
Just as a reminder the middle pedal is a brake pedal.
Having had a near miss with a 40ft'er tonight (I know as he told me this- his explanation was 'how will I get out unless I force my way out. I told him if he had hit my car I'd have also hit him) who pulled out on me on a roundabout then cut into my lane I have a very dim view of lorry drivers at the moment.
I wonder what happened. I've lost count of the amount of times that I've seen a lorry drift over a lane into the hard shoulder.
I passed the two guys about a mile from the accident going the opposite direction on my way to work . Dry day good visibility and a straight road .
I really feel for their families i. I have felt sick all day .
Anyone thinking of doing the end to end - don't use this road go north or south
I passed the two guys about a mile from the accident going the opposite direction on my way to work . Dry day good visibility and a straight road .
I really feel for their families i. I have felt sick all day .
Anyone thinking of doing the end to end - don't use this road go north or south
Horrible thing to happen.
My 3 best mates were there 2 weeks ago,it was such a worry then, I couldn't imagine how it would feel if you know anyone cycling the Lejog now.
I'm So sad to read this
I grew up around there, no one in their right mind would ride a bike on that road. Its still sad news though.
I grew up around there, no one in their right mind would ride a bike on that road. Its still sad news though.
so they were 'asking' for it ? 😯
why are vulnerable road users deemed to be the guilty party for using a road?-- i suspect that without 'local' knowledge they were just following a prescribed route ......very sad and tragic for all concerned, there is a campaign to give all cyclists at least 4ft of clearance when overtaking-- this must become a part of driving culture.....
The road is like a motorway in all but name. If you have ever been there you would appreciate just how dangerous the road is.
...have no clue you're 'not supposed to use it' even though they are legally allowed to with no signs to the contrary.The road is like a motorway in all but name. If you have (n)ever been there you would...
At least i assume thats what you mean otherwise your being judgemental of 2 people who sadly died doing something they were entitled to and should have been safe doing.
Real tragedy for all concerned.
Have to say the two people I knew who have been killed while riding were both killed by lorries on NSL dual carriageways. I just won't ride on them, not a risk I'd want to take.
very sadly us cyclists are almost treated like road kill, a sad but inevitable consequence of being on 'fast' roads-- this attitude is so wrong on all counts-- the law needs changing and turned the other way , where the onus is on the motorised party to prove negligemce --and penalties need to be made severe/and enforced-- oh and aholes like on top gear et all need to be brought to account for trivialising dangerous behaviour...
its 3 lane road, in each direction, with a national speed limit in operation, effectively its a motorway, would you ride on a motorway? Yes people should be able to ride safely any were but thats not the reality, instead we should concentrate on self preservation.
Stato, chill out, no one has blamed the cyclists, only pointed out it was a very dangerous placeto ride.
You're not allowed to ride on a motorway so no, you wouldn't ride on a motorway and, to be fair, a driver on a motorway wouldn't expect to see a cyclist there either. However, on a road with no TRO restricting use by cyclists then a driver should expect to see cyclists and drive accordingly. It's no good making up your own laws and saying cyclists shouldn't be there, and you shouldn't be driving as if it's a motorway when it is not.
Sincerest condolences to the families of the deceased.
Sad news. My deepest sympathies to their families and friends.
The existing laws are strong enough, unfortunately rarely applied.
Personally I don't ride on "fast" roads due to this but it still does not excuse the issue.
I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't have been there (I hope), it's an A road, they were perfectly within their rights to be there. The only person to blame for this incident is the driver, it seems.
That said, knowing that bit of road, you could not pay me to ride on it, especially not at half 8 in the morning. It's 2-3 lanes wide (depending on where along it you are) and I simply don't trust drivers enough.
project - Member
Just as a reminder the middle pedal is a brake pedal.
Knowing where the brake pedal is doesn't help if you can't combine use of all the controls to maintain safe operation of the vehicle. It will make little difference to the out come if you hit a bike while the brake is being applied.
You're not allowed to ride on a motorway so no, you wouldn't ride on a motorway and, to be fair, a driver on a motorway wouldn't expect to see a cyclist there either.. However, on a road with no TRO restricting use by cyclists then a driver should expect to see cyclists and drive accordingly
ok but you would ride on a road that just as dangerous as motorway as long as there is not a sign telling you that you cant. I wouldn't ride on a motorway or any road resembling one not because its against the law, but rather because its a very dangerous thing to do.
3dvgirl, there is a difference between unpleasant and dangerous. plenty of country lanes that are dangerous but very pleasant and often dual carriageways while unpleasant aren't that dangerous. Most dual carriageways come with space and good sightlines. unlike most minor roads!!!
pop over to Facebook and have a look at the South West Truckers page.....
ok but you would ride on a road that just as dangerous as motorway as long as there is not a sign telling you that you cant.
The point is, if i dropped you in a different part of the country and you started riding down a road as there was no sign telling you not to, would you know it was dangerous?
pop over to Facebook and have a look at the South West Truckers page.....
Do you have a link as I can't seem to find it
pop over to Facebook and have a look at the South West Truckers page.....
you need to be a member of said group, whats so exciting?
Seems to be a closed group.
couple of idiots calling for a ban on cyclists using the road.
I had a go at trying to explain but the reply I got from one intelligent individual was "bo11 ocks "
I'm not bothering getting any further involved....
Despite my belief that it is not a road that kills or injures you, it is the people using it carelessly or dangerously that do, there can be cases where cyclists are restricted when there is a suitable and convenient alternative (for example, the Golden Valley bypass between Gloucester and Cheltenham where there is a TRO prohibiting cyclists). My main concern though is that drivers would then be encouraged that cyclists can be legally removed from any road where drivers are too irresponsible to drive with due care and attention. Drivers need to be aware that roads are not just for motor vehicles and this needs to be reflected in the courts when judgements are made.
Indeed, psling, the seriousness of road culture needs shoring up big style-- the whole thing is sold as a kind of fun game ffs-- and the 'penalties' for transgressing are bizarre-- killed on the road , occupational hazard 😥
Perhaps if it wasnt so far away from most people we could have organised a sponsored bike ride down it at cyclists speed, to raise awareness of the deaths of 2 fellow cyclists and raise some cash for the families.
Two dual carrigeways near me has recently had the speed limit reduced from 70mph to 40mph and the police actually enforced it for a few days and issued a few fines and points, some motorists werent happy, but still a woman managed to kill a cyclist on one of them.
Dual carrigeways are usually good sight lines, central reservations, and a lane to overtake in.
From the pictures on the BBC South West news earlier it didn't look like a stretch of road I'd ride if there was an alternative. The Police spokesman also said that they hadn't identified the victims yet but it appeared that they where heading up North.
3mins 27 in.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b036c5mz/Spotlight_02_07_2013/ ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b036c5mz/Spotlight_02_07_2013/[/url]
It's just been on the telly again and it was an HGV, not that it makes any difference. 🙁
My condolences go out to the family of those killed (not sure I like the way the BBC refer to it as "have died" like it just happened spontaneously and I thought the pictures of the mangled bikes on the carriageway a little ghoulish) but I also feel sorry for the truck driver. It's inexcusable (I won't call it an accident) but for a few moments of inattention, it could happen to any of us. I can only imagine what he must be going through right now.
Has anyone here done LEJOG? Is there an acknowledged safe route or would they have simply looked at the map and said - "that looks ok - nice straight bit of road"? I can't imagine you'd be able to identify the bad bits of any particular journey without a bit of local knowledge.
I can't imagine how the relations of these 2 guys must be feeling - I hope they've been informed by now. Not knowing would be terrible.
FFS
but for a few moments of inattention
So as a minimum that would be driving without due care and attention let alone manslaughter. He was in a wagon, assume unladen so 5 tons. If you are in a car do you not pay attention. So a car at a ton can easily kill a pedestraian/cyclist.
What was the guy the other day killed a cyclist due to not looking for 9 seconds used the "momentary laps"
UNACCEPTABLE WHEN YOU CAN AND SOME DO KILL PEOPLE.
Can't concentrate dont drive.
The picture in the BBC report:
[img] 
[/img]
is [url= http://goo.gl/maps/m9bHl ]here[/url]
and looking down the road towards where the incident happened http://goo.gl/maps/1TSUq - the lorry is stopped just before the parking place 1/4 mile away, with a nice straight flat 2 lane road with good visibility all the way to there (from the cab of an HGV it's not even like the cyclists would be hidden by cars in front - he'd have seen then well in advance if paying attention). I'd rather ride on quieter lanes, but I certainly do ride on roads similar to that. No reason I can see why it shouldn't be safe for cyclists if drivers are paying proper attention.
I also feel sorry for the truck driver.
I don't. Not in the least little bit.
Would you ride on a dual carriageway? Theres on here in Manchester from Man U down to the centre. I've not once ridden it (40 limit)-always ridden down the back.
Just because we can doesnt mean we should.
Why say this? Drivers on a dual carriageway slip into higher speeds. In a NSL it wouldn't be uncommon to be passed at 70. Factor in quick and sudden lane changes at x metres per second.. (this part is OT to the truck situation but worth hilighting no?)
Poor guys 🙁 that is another bit of sad news. Unfortunately there are too many idiots on the road. I was almost mtaken out last night by a bus cutting in front of me. I have never had an incident that close. Anyway enough of me, the driver is clearly at fault and should have the full force of the law thrown at him. If you can't see cyclists on the road you are not fit to drive.
I have driven over that stretch many times and wouldt ride a bike on it or any other dual carridgeway tbh unless for a very short distance and only if it was quiet.
On that piece of road going south I once saw Ian Botham walking the hard shoulder with several others on one of his charity walks they did have a vehical with flashing lights behind them I did wonder how safe it was.
a very sad day for all for sure
I rode the A30 from Bodmin North to Somerset in the mid 90s as it was the quickest way home .I think the trouble with LEJOG is the number of direct roads is fairly limited so peole stay on the main road as its quicker and some LEJOGGERS have limited time if its a holiday
A sad thing to happen to the riders and their families.
Personally I would never ride on a dual carriage way and I don't understand riders who do. The risk is too great.
I rode the A30 from Bodmin North to Somerset in the mid 90s as it was the quickest way home .I think the trouble with LEJOG is the number of direct roads is fairly limited so peole stay on the main road as its quicker and some LEJOGGERS have limited time if its a holiday
Yes, on my lejog I did quite a long detour to the south to avoid the A30. If I'd been more pushed for time I would've used it.
Please don't let an already tragic thread descend into a petty point scoring match. 🙄
Two cyclists died. I have a friend who's doing LEJOG and was in the area yesterday, when I read this my heard stopped. Fortunately its not his group.
Thoughts go out to the family and friends of the riders.
Its the human condition to look after number one, these incidents will happen until theres proper consequences for careless or negligent behaviour.
Poor guys
My understanding is that it's a man and a woman.
It is so sad to hear of these tragedies. 2 guys out on there bikes, mowed down by some pr!ck not paying attention whilst driving.
It is about time the law in this country was changed so that killing a cyclist amounts to manslaughter.
My sympathies go out to the poor families involved 🙁
I think it is about time us cyclists stood up for ourselves and brought London to a standstill. maybe if the powers at be knew how many of us there are and how strongly we all feel about the poor regard given to us 2 wheel road users, they might listen and do something about it.
Awful, awful tragedy. Not one, but two people.
What I don't understand is - the lorry driver has killed two people, and yet is [i]released on bail[/i]?
That doesn't seem logical to me.
Its the human condition to look after number one, these incidents will happen until theres proper consequences for careless or negligent behaviour.
Well not really - I don't believe its rational to say (e.g.) a minimum ten year prison sentence would be a better deterrent; he almost certainly didn't set out that day to crash never mind to kill someone. Putting human beings in charge of fast moving vehicles is an inherently flawed design, especially if you mix in different vehicles of different speeds and visibilities.
what don't you understand. Depriving someone of their liberty without trial (which is what remand is) requires a very strong justification. If there is no expectation that he is going to disappear before trial, interfere with witnesses or commit further crimes I'm not sure how you could justify sending someone to jail until they have been tried and convicted.What I don't understand is - the lorry driver has killed two people, and yet is released on bail?
Poly, he didn't set out to kill someone, but there is no deterrent to ensure that drivers actually bother to follow the law. Speeding is fine, parking on yellow lines fine, phones fine, careless driving minor slap on the wrist, kill someone, a stern telling off. There are drivers with over 30 points on the road!!!!!!! Legally!!!!!!
No one has a right to drive!!! If you can't obey the rules you have no right to a licence end of. Hardship!! You knew the rules before you got the licence, tough!
my heart goes out to the families involved, absolute tragedy 🙁
isn't it about time that all vehicles were fitted with on board cameras recording both the road ahead & the driver at the same time, then at least the authorities could prosecute with full evidence available. Been the witness to a couple of near fatal road accidents myself, in one we still have no idea why a lorry driver crossed into the path of an oncoming motorcyclist - at least with on board cameras we would have known if his defense in court stood up or if he was doing anything willfully negligent at the time.
What mrmo said only with less exclamation marks!
Poly- You shouldnt blame the victim, they were doing what they had every right to do.
Usually(difficult to be specific to this case) the hazard starts and ends with the car,van truck, bus etc, the person driving it and the way we encourage risk taking without consequences.
isn't it about time that all vehicles were fitted with on board cameras recording both the road ahead & the driver at the same time,
Some haulage insurance companies supply them to their customers, they are cheaply available (same tech/price as helmet cams). No-one seems to want to pay for one tho despite loads of posts on here about 'bad drivers'. I'll certainly be buying one when i eventually get a car, tiny % of cost of running a car and useful if you are in or witness to an accident.
I do wonder how long it will be before black boxes become compulsary in cars.
Cars are getting more efficient thus use less fuel, drivers are a source of revenue to the exchequer. Think about what would happen if everyone suddenly started to use electric vehicles? The tax has to come from somewhere? As for people not driving is that very likely?
Road pricing is the logical way forward, so how do you go about it?
Then car insurance, you can already see a few companies selling black boxes to reduce premiums.
At what point do you add those two things together and get a compulsary blackbox fitted to all cars? HGV and PSV are already on tachos... extend it to all "professional" drivers, reps. mini cabs, then finally to everyone?
If you want to enforce the law on drivers then someone is actually going to have to do something about it!
When you think it was a wagon which will have a tacho I assume so in reality he has enforced rest breaks so should be able to concentrate on his driving. Cars do not use tachos so sales people, engineers etc can drive far in excess of what is reasonable. I know this happens due to pressures of work etc and I do not want to see someone thrown into jail for 10 years sumarily.
Accidents by their very nature happen. Many of us have had them by getting something wrong, OK it hasn't cost someone their life and I hope the driver is filled with remorse. The fact is we all push the limits its the consequences of pushing those limits. The driver should have been concentrating, people should not work exceptionally long days and drive but they are pushed to do so. The whole motoring things needs a shakeup.
Proper access for cyclists, proper punishment, enforced for bad irresponsible driving.
Non of this will bring these two souls back to their families but what are the two UK cycling agencies doing about this. How many deaths before there is some action.
I would welcome once a year even a ride to remember those lost. Done properly it may get noticed.
First my sincerest sympathies to the families a loss of life is always tragic. I also have sympathy for the driver - I am sure he set out with no intention of killing during his working day and now has to live with the consequences.
What seems clear to me having done LEJoG and spent a lot of time riding and driving the roads of Britain. That whilst we have a right to ride safely on any road, however a right to be safe and zero risk are two completely different things. When riding bikes, crossing roads or undertaking any activity we should be aware of the risk - dual carriageways with cars doing 70 mph are always going to be less safe than roads where cars are travelling slower. It may be hard for se to hear but that is the sad fact.
I for one tried hard to avoid the A30 there are plenty of alternative and potentially safer routes that we are free and able to choose.
We make choices in life, we usually use our skills, judgement and experience to live them out. Sometimes life and chance conspire against us an result in a tragedy such as this.
Blame and safety recommendations are something for the courts to apportion and make.
Blame and safety recommendations are something for the courts to apportion and make.
and if the courts cannot be trusted to be impartial in their judgements? What other recourse is there?
We've all heard about the driver killing a cyclist then getting away with it because the jury thought "that could've been me", not to mention the judegs themselves with blatant bias. The whole of society needs to change it's attitude, the judiciary should be the force to make it happen, at the moment it's being at best complacent and at worst encouraging this carelessness resulting in death, suffering and pain...
[quote=shortcut ]dual carriageways with cars doing 70 mph are always going to be less safe than roads where cars are travelling slower.
They shouldn't be. For a start, it's a lot easier to carry out a proper overtaking manoeuvre when there's a whole extra lane available.
dual carriageways with cars doing 70 mph are always going to be less safe than roads where cars are travelling slower.
I have to disagree with this, speed is not the issue,
There are plenty of roads that are far less safe than dual carriageways. There are unsafe DC roads, but usually you have good sightlines and penty of room to work with. Comapre this to the Fosseway between Stow and Cirencester, good sight lines but a narrow road, very fast cars and no where to go!. Or many NSL country roads, crap sightlines and plenty of cars and Motorbikes out for a jolly!
I don't feel sorry for the lorry driver - he caused the accident by hitting two 'vehicles' moving considerably slower than he was.
I hope they put him away for a good stretch and ban him from driving for life.
However - I also feel the cyclists put themselves in harms way by riding that road.
We all make our own judgments on what we are happy about doing - I'd not be confident riding that road, and I wouldn't do it.
But, they were legally allowed to be there, and should have expected other road users to see them.
Very sad waste of life....
just has a look at the links to the road that someone put up, It isn't a nice road granted, but i have ridden similar without thinking. I would try not to ride that road, but i wouldn't try that hard if that makes sense. There is enough of a hard shoulder to ride and keep out of the way of cars and trucks for a start.
so they were 'asking' for it ?why are vulnerable road users deemed to be the guilty party for using a road?--
Whilst I take more issue with your reductio ad absurdum that the other poster was implying they were "asking for it", it's like the sad regularity of TT'ers getting killed, seriously injured or paralysed on the A19 in Teesside, just becasue you can, doesn't mean you should.
No one is perfect, incidents happen, you've got to see the other side's point that the accident wouldn't have occoured if the cyclits had been on some parralel back road where cyclits might be expected, rather than an NSL DC which it treated as a pseudo-motorway. Even if the driver was on the phone, making a toastie or watching Corrie on his iPad and 100% at fault, becasue he's a douchbag who treats motorways with that level of contempt, if you're not there, you can't get run over.
[quote=thisisnotaspoon ]so they were 'asking' for it ?
why are vulnerable road users deemed to be the guilty party for using a road?--
Whilst I take more issue with your reductio ad absurdum that the other poster was implying they were "asking for it", it's like the sad regularity of TT'ers getting killed, seriously injured or paralysed on the A19 in Teesside, just becasue you can, doesn't mean you should.
No one is perfect, incidents happen, you've got to see the other side's point that the accident wouldn't have occoured if the cyclits had been on some parralel back road where cyclits might be expected, rather than an NSL DC which it treated as a pseudo-motorway. Even if the driver was on the phone, making a toastie or watching Corrie on his iPad and 100% at fault, becasue he's a douchbag who treats motorways with that level of contempt, if you're not there, you can't get run over.
[i]reductio ad absurdum[/i] If you're not riding on the road the chances of getting hit by a motor vehicle are substantially reduced?
incidents happen, you've got to see the other side's point that the accident wouldn't have occoured if the cyclits had been on some parralel back road where cyclits might be expected
alternatively they could have been on the back road and a farmer towing a load of sheep to market might have misjudged how wide his trailer was and killed them.
Don't blame the victims in this.
I have never heard of a road kill someone, i have heard of very few cases where a car has killed someone with out help.
It is drivers that kill people, they might not intend to do so. But it only takes a moment, or 9 seconds on the A19, of not looking at the job in hand to kill someone.
TINAS, so what happens when these vehicles leave the dual carriageways and hit the A and B roads? The drivers standard of driving and alertness magically improves?
Of course not.
TINAS, so what happens when these vehicles leave the dual carriageways and hit the A and B roads? The drivers standard of driving and alertness magically improves?
Having sat in cabs hitchiking accross Europe, actualy, yes!
It is drivers that kill people, they might not intend to do so. But it only takes a moment, or 9 seconds on the A19, of not looking at the job in hand to kill someone.
Not paying attention for 9 seconds on just about any other road in the area and he'd have been in a hedge/wall/field, which probbaly explains my above comment. 90 times out of 100 it would have been an unsafe act, but nothing more, 9 more it might have been a near miss, and once in a blue moon actualy cause an accident. Which is why he probably did it, he didn't feel unsafe.
I have never heard of a road kill someone
Really, you have never heard of particular roads decribed as dangerous, or 'accident blackspots'? do you thnik that's just statistical anomalies, or are certain accidents more likley in some places than others.
I'm not absolving the driver of blame, I'm saying if you're not on DC's there you cant get hit by drivers doing stupid things on DC's!
What I don't understand is - the lorry driver has killed two people, and yet is released on bail?
[b]That doesn't seem logical to me.[/b]
It's perfectly logical.
Which bit don't you understand ?
Really, you have never heard of particular roads decribed as dangerous, or 'accident blackspots'? do you thnik that's just statistical anomalies, or are certain accidents more likley in some places than others.
but it not the road that kills someone, i don't see lumps of tarmac jumping up and assualting people. It is how the driver chooses to behave on a piece of road that is at issue. Having spoken to a fireman who was cutting a driver out of a car and had to jump out of the way because another driver couldn't be bother to heed the warning signs.
How many drivers regard themselves as above average ability? There is one of your problems.
How many drivers regard themselves as above average ability
Is it half of them?
I'm not absolving the driver of blame, I'm saying if you're not on DC's there you cant get hit by drivers doing stupid things on DC's!
but you can still get hit by drivers doing stupid things on other roads, overtaking on blind bends/bridges, either being overtaken or having a car appear on your side of the road! have a look at the stupid girl in Norwich.
The number of times i have almost been hit by drivers forgetting they have a trailer on back roads!
[url= http://www.advertiser.ie/kilkenny/article/42138/irish-drivers-hold-themselves-in-high-regard ]Irish example of average drivers, but seen plenty of other cases in other countries. [/url]
The two riders have been named both midle aged and experienced b y the sound of it, they havent named the driver, wonder why.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23157100
How many drivers regard themselves as above average ability?
How many people have more than the average number of legs?
Sorry for going completely OT, but that's what I always think of when your point is made 🙂
[quote=aracer ]
How many people have more than the average number of legs?
The vast majority?
How many people have more than the average number of legs?
Everyone that has two legs. So quite a few.