[Closed] 1x11 shimano ? When

http://www.bikeradar.com/au/mtb/news/article/shimano-xtr-m9000-11-speed-groupset-first-look-40683/
But 11-40 cassette so significantly less range than the 10-42 SRAM offering. Basically the same as any 10sp with an extender cog added but with a slightly smoother range.

Can't really so the point.

I have a new build quandry for when my new frame comes later in the summer - want to go single up front but not loose too much range.

However whilst I could possibly swallow the cost of X01, the ongoing cost of replacing £150-£200 cassettes plus converting existing shimano hope hubs to XD are a barrier for me.

The Shimano 11 spd is a reduced range as mentioned and there's no stock where I've looked so far, plus it'll only be XTR for a couple of years so £££ again.

I've pretty much decided on XT 10 speed plus NW plus Hope Trex - so no hub costs and cheaper replacement chains and cassettes....but there may still be the added cost of new Trex and NW chainrings (I'm guessing these need replacing in line with the chain/cassette when worn?)

I think the XT development cycle means that it'll be out next Autumn.
So if you're lucky you could get XTR this year and replace with the XT cassette next year.
Of course, it might not work out like that 🙂

I reckon it will though, as you say, that's always what's happened previously (or it's been simultaneous as with 9 speed in 1999), and because it uses a normal freehub body they've not got the same issues as SRAM in that cheaper cassettes will weigh the same as a small planet if they don't employ some crazy production methods.

18th August at CRC for all of the mechanical and (allegedly) the Di2 stuff.

1x chainset still says Oct, so maybe a few things might dribble in later.

Pepsi and coke cola 😉 sometimes think its the same company. If Shim. go 1x11 it will be électronic but theres a few patents to get round.

[b]If [/b]Shim. go 1x11 it will be électronic but theres a few patents to get round.

Eh? Shimano [i]are [/i]going 1x11, and offering mechanical [i]and [/i]electronic on XTR.

1x chainset still says Oct, so maybe a few things might dribble in later.

Ah yes, checking Madison too they're saying 24th October.

I'd be interested to know the cable-pull ratio for Shimano 11 speed MTB mechs/shifters when they do come out, I'm just wondering if there's much chance of "Dynasis" mechs working with 11 speed shifters seeing as we already know they'll stretch far enough... I suspect they'll be contiuning their policy of incremental incompatibility, but there's bound to be someone out there who'll figure out another 'hack'...

That the cassette is "Backwards compatible" is a big benefit IMO...

I think the Fringe costs of going to XX1/X01 (a new XD driver or hub, replacement Cassette every 3-6 months?) do sort of serve to put potential buyers off, and I guess aftermarket sales are where these sort of "groupsets" will be pitched initially? are people buying 1xN bikes off the peg? a lot of OEM bikes are probably still going to be 2/3 x N for a while yet I reckon...

Shimano's justification for not doing a wider range cassette than 11-40 is "if you need more range you'll buy a 2 or 3 ring chainset... you sort of can't argue with that I guess, but SRAM do win the numbers game there, Shimano might struggle to sell the idea to people looking to replace a 2xN drive as they will inevitably loose a bit of top and bottom end...

I'd expect to see an XT version within 12 months and Zee/SLX within 24 moths, Shimano have sped up their whole "Trickle down" thing in recent years...

If Shim. go 1x11 it will be électronic but theres a few patents to get round.

WTF are you on about exactly?

a new XD driver or hub, replacement Cassette every 3-6 months?

Right on the first, no way on the second. There's a thread where folk are finding the 42t wears fast when you use it a lot, personally I've got 900 miles on my XX1 and the chain's not at 0.75, and the cassette looks perfect still.

are people buying 1xN bikes off the peg?

They're definitely out there, in a number of guises, On One Codeine, S-Works Epic WC, some of the Enduros etc.

Shimano's justification for not doing a wider range cassette than 11-40 is "if you need more range you'll buy a 2 or 3 ring chainset... you sort of can't argue with that I guess, but SRAM do win the numbers game there, Shimano might struggle to sell the idea to people looking to replace a 2xN drive as they will inevitably loose a bit of top and bottom end...

I totally agree with you that 2/3x will continue to proliferate for a while yet on OEM bikes, and Shimano will continue to rinse SRAM on that I suspect!

There's a thread where folk are finding the 42t wears fast when you use it a lot,

are people buying 1xN bikes off the peg?

Shimano's if you need more you need to go 2/3x is great but there is an alternative. If you can have the range and the simplicity of 1x then it's both owning and eating the cake.

I can't find the part number but the 42t is replaceable.

It was touted as one of the benefits on XX certainly, however it seems in reality that's not the case with XX1/X01, it's pressed on. Leonardi (IIRC) do do a replacement, but it's all a bit bodgetastic.

By électronic i was thinking of wifi and i find their 1x11 a bit of a bodge job offering nothing more than a 1x10. Until thay find their way around the pentents sram and spill out a 9/40 or a 12/44 ^^ thay're going to lose ground.

By électronic of thinking wifi

If your using the 42 too often put a smaller ring.

Not really, if you drop to your lowest and are fine in it then it's not a problem. Same as hitting the 36t, if the range works it doesn't matter how you use them.

By électronic of thinking wifi and i find their 1x11 a bit of a bodge job offering nothing more than a 1x10. Until thay find their way around the pentents sram and spill out a 9/40 or a 12/44 ^^ thay're going to lose ground.

Wireless would introduce as many 'issues' as it solves. Their 11 speed offers a wider range than their 10 speed cassettes. How's that a bodge? A 12/44 would have a narrower range than the 11-40 they are offering. A 9-40 would be horrible, the 10 feels a bit 'gritty' on XX1 anyway.

If your using the 42 too often put a smaller ring.

Yes. That was discussed in the thread.

Not really, if you drop to your lowest and are fine in it then it's not a problem. Same as hitting the 36t, if the range works it doesn't matter how you use them.

At risk of derailing this thread it's about frequency isn't it - most rides I use neither the 42 nor the 10, which makes me think my ring size is about right. If I were using the 42 (or the 10) a huge amount (perhaps more than 1/11th of the time!) then I'd think I was using the wrong sized ring.

Edit: there's perhaps a wider issue there for the folk who are borderline in having sufficient range to cope with 1x11, but I'd say that if you really wider range then single ring isn't for you...

You've got a divious mind mikewsmith. 😀

Judging by the number of bikes specced with SRAM 1x11 this year and next, versus the number of SRAM bikes previously, surely Shimano must be really hurting.
Their comment of "[i]if you need more range you'll buy a 2 or 3 ring chainset[/i]" clearly isn't appealing to people. Adding 400g just to get 1 or 2 extra gears just doesn't make sense.

From a suspension progression point of view, 1x makes a lot of sense too.

I'm speccing a brand new bike and at the moment, 1x10 with a one-up cog/mech plate sounds the most appealing in terms of cost/weight/range.

Difficaut to multi quote on the phone.
When someone brings out a new standard that is popular the others jump on the band wagon. This the case with Shim. face a the success of srams 1x11. I'm not convinced that Shims. 1x11 is their last anwser.

I am converted on 1x whatever. I've never been the fastest climber and do struggle on proper big hills with 1x10 with a Trex, but I'd struggle with a granny ring so for me, the simplification, quietness and chain retention with a NW & clutch wins every time. I dont plan on using a front mech again.

Their comment of "if you need more range you'll buy a 2 or 3 ring chainset" clearly isn't appealing to [s]people[/s] certain bike manufacturers.

FTFY. The vast majority of bike buyers won't really give a crap, in fact I suspect more will be put off by the fact they can't now climb such steep hills, than will be impressed by the simplicity of single ring transmission. We're not really representative of the industry at large, and I think for now at least, single ring set ups OEM are still a tough sell on most bikes.

By électronic i was thinking of wifi and i find their 1x11 a bit of a bodge job offering nothing more than a 1x10. Until thay find their way around the pentents sram and spill out a 9/40 or a 12/44 ^^ thay're going to lose ground.

[url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/analysis-sram-wireless-electronic-group ]What Wifi like this?[/url] we'll see...

And what patents are you on about? Shimano are extremely good at avoiding patent infringement...

Ive ridden Shimano 1x11 and its mint. Smooth shifting, good ratios, more than enough from the extra range to suit 99% of your riding with the added bonus of working on 10spd wheels. Sure X1 has a wider range, but realistically a 34/11 is enough for anything off road, and a 34/40 will climb anything if you are reasonably fit. Any smaller and you are twiddling the cranks and not going anywhere. Only thing I don't like is the colour... that bronze is a bit weird.

We're not really representative of the industry at large, and I think for now at least, single ring set ups OEM are still a tough sell on most bikes.

FWIW we're selling about 50% 1x10 right now.

I disagree njee
People are swayed by weight. When you look at bike self-builds in the AM/Enduro category on somewhere like MTBR - many many builds are 1x.

There are lot of people going burlier in the frame so using 1x to keep the weight around 30lbs.

34/11 is enough for anything off road, and a 34/40 will climb anything if you are reasonably fit.

FWIW we're selling about 50% 1x10 right now.

Aye, but you're not mass market (yet), you're targeting the sort of people who frequent these websites.

I disagree njee
People are swayed by weight. When you look at bike self-builds in the AM/Enduro category on somewhere like MTBR - many many builds are 1x.

Wholly agree - that's the big selling point, and look at all the threads on here about saving weight from just about everything. But again, AM/Enduro builds still aren't the 'bread and butter' of what manufacturers are selling. I'd expect quicker adoption there, as they're being bought by the enthusiast.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge exponent of 1x10, not used a triple for 10 years, and been 1x10 (and latterly 11) for 4 years now, but we're a way off it being universal, and I still say Shimano will do just fine out of their 2/3x options.

So what are you saying? That Shimano are doing the right thing for them at the moment by largely ignoring 1x? I disagree.

If you flip it round and didn't have a bunch of standards to worry about what would you come up with? Wider freehubs? Smaller Diameter, wider ranges?

So what are you saying? That Shimano are doing the right thing for them at the moment by largely ignoring 1x? I disagree.

I'm saying that Shimano aren't going to be quaking in their boots that their 1x11 offering isn't quite as versatile as SRAMs, and that the double and triple set ups will not be the complete flop that some seem to predict.

So what are you saying? That Shimano are doing the right thing for them at the moment by largely ignoring 1x? I disagree.

I wouldn't say they're ignoring 1xN at all, they're lining up their top end groupset to have a dedicated 1x11 offering, they clearly see it as 'flagship feature' worth having...

Of course going back a decade or so they also gave the world 'Saint' which initially brought us ruffty tuffty 1x9 drivetrains, OK intended more for DH/FR applications but SRAM were certainly not offering an equivalent at that time...

You really have to view this over the longer term. OK Shimano are lagging by a couple of years in getting a 1x11, wide range MTB group out, but are they giving away much in the middle - entry level end of the market? particularly in OEM terms? arguably the land of Alivio -> SLX Vs X3 ->X7 is more important for both big 'S's turnover than the (relative) handful of XTR/XX1 parts they'll shift each year.

Shimano now offer their shadow+ mechs down to Deore level. Are SRAM matching this with the X5? their less pricey brakes are getting glowing reviews, anyone fancy some cheap Avids at the minute?

OK so SRAM are slapping their XX1/X01 parts on a few expensive bikes, but that probably only accounts for what ~2% or the global OEM - MTB market? Shimano have far stronger presence in the middle ground, a better reputation for durability, they've chucked a large part of their efforts at Road groups lately, and are finally working their way back round to addressing XX1...

I'd think about where both companies will be in the next three to five years, rather than where they are today...

The look of the new XTR kit is really growing on me, I wonder if it'll run well with an XX1 chainset up front?
If it does, I'd be pretty tempted to give it a go when it comes out.

I might have to see if CRC come up with any decent offers over the next few weeks and get some ordered.

Would like to have a closer look at their ring tooth pattern.

I just hope the new XTR works with a XX1 chain ring! Im a simple soul and easily pleased.