[Closed] 1st time tubeless advice

Just like Life.

Are you more interested in reliability, performance benefit or weight?

1/ Reliability (don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere)
2/ Weight (less is always better)
3/ Performance (I ride like a [s]spazz[/s] OAP anyway, what difference is it going to make)

ghetto. unless you like spending lot's of money for something you can do yourself for half the price.

I run notubes.com and was fairly easy to setup plenty of soap suds to seal them. just carry a spare tube etc on a long ride just in case!

Interesting - just got the exact same wheels, and set them up tubeless yesterday. Just popped into the garage this morning, and no sign of air loss at all.

What I did was..

Wrapped rims in one layer of this. http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tubes_Stan%27s_Rim_Tape/5360042194/

You will need one, in 21mm.

Video on stans website here.. http://www.notubes.com/movietape.php

When you cut a hole in the tape for the valve, be very careful not to make it too big. Just make a tiny slit, then poke the valve through.

Use these valves

http://www.freeborn.co.uk/shop/components/tubeless-conversion-kits/289-stans-notubes-olympic-valve-stem

You will need 2, obviously.

Then you may find some tyres will come in useful at this stage. Preferably tubeless ones, but not necessary.

Take your tyres, and the wheels with the tape on, and put a tube in with the tyres and those wheels. Pump up to 40ish psi and leave for an hour. This stretches the tyres nicely, and pushes the rim tape into the rim.

Then take the tube out, valve in, sealant in. Lots of help on stans website in video form, or ask here again.

oi colin, your wheels turned up just now.

should have got some more shiney ones. they are nice enough though.

will look ok on your new carbon shitter though.

ghetto. unless you like spending lot's of money for something you can do yourself for half the price.

ghetto would probably work out to be about £10 cheaper, and much heavier. Probably not as reliable either. And all the stuff like valves and rim tape are re-usable/can do more then 1 wheel.

It's OK - I'm gonna grind down the rim to get rid of the black anodising and save a few grammes.

Ghetto. I bought the Joe's kit thinking it would maybe be easier/neater than homemade, but it was a complete waste of money.

The only time its 'let me down' in the a**e end of knowwhere was when i had a big spill on the Auchindrain rocks and managed to burp. The tyre immediately resealed, but some combination of dodgy pump/slightly blocked valve meant i had to give up re-inflating and put a tube in. On reflection i should have tried my mates pump and would probably have been fine.

I still think the key to trouble free installation and use is to build the rim well up with insulating tape/rim strip until the tyre is really really tight to get on. This leaves the air nowhere to escape and should allow you to get a seal with even a ropey old track pump.

Joe's sealant seems the best in my experience.

I doubt i saved any weight, but the difference in the ride was immediately noticeable, and there have been instances when i've smacked into rocks so hard i've bashed the rim, loosened spokes, but still not lost any air.

(Rigg's road is the perfect proving ground b.t.w 😉 )

I've only ever used stans sealant here, how is joes better?

for reliability I'd say UST with goo inside...

Peachos - Druid doesn't have much issue with money. 🙂

1. Ultimate reliability will be UST with sealant and stans yellow rim tape. Keep the weight of the UST tyre the combined weight of the old tyre and tube combined. This will (IMO) give you tyre that weighs what you're accustomed to, will roll better, grip better, air up really easily, resist punctures well, and be resistance to sidewall damage from rocky areas.

I've not done the ghetto BMX tube route, but it looks perfectly viable - depending on the tyres its done with, you might face sidewall or puncture issues. Sidewalls are the main issue if you're using a light tyre - not only will they be more prone to damage, they'll squirm too much when running low pressure and turning.

2. Agreed weight loss is always good if you can get away with it. Ghetto with tubed tyres is probably best for weight loss. Here you can use a rim strip, BMX tube or since you're using stans rims, use yellow tape and treat it like a UST rim. however, depending on your inner tubes, the weight of the rim strip and increased volume of sealant over UST can approach the weight of your tubed setup.

Using tubed tyres for tubless setup requires more experimentation. Those with slack beads or 'rough bead' won't seal or air up as well as UST and may require a rim strip of some kind to make up the gap and make airing up easier. They'll also generally require more sealant, since the tyre carcass is not specifically designed to be air tight.

I run Stans flows with yellow rim tape and, until recently, UST kendas (bluegroove and nevegal combo) this year I've been experimenting with tubed tyres to get the weight down - So far, I've not got on with the kevlar beaded highrollers, although the steel bead version is fine - Advantage kevlar aired up well with little hassle and I'm currently running michelin all terrains, which are light (640gm ish) are wide for a 2.2 and have nice rubbery beads and inner carcass. They're quite thin carcasses though and I'm not convinced on their sidewall robustness - time will tell.

One point about putting a tube in if a tyre becomes unseated is that I've found mine to be full of thorns that sealed - these just puncture the innertube - although this may hold long enough to get the bead seated again, I built up a tubeless kit with some anchovies and tyre boots and spare goop. Seems more reliable where I've had to use it.

Scienceofficer - Member

Peachos - Druid doesn't have much issue with money.

❓ Bike shop wages??

Lots to think about - thanks.

If it helps, I've been running Michelin XCR ATs (tubed) on the Ti hardtail for about a year now and had no problems at all with tyre damage.

My tips (6 year tubeless user)

1. you don't need the special tape, anything strong/sticky enough will do (I've used B&Q clear stuff & duck tape)
2. you can use valves cut out ot old tubes
3. B&Q door sealant in the well of the rim makes inflation/sealing easier but makes fitting tight tyres tough.
4. I've used all sorts of tyres after 3 above. Light ones are nice but thin sidewalls can be fragile, all this depends on how much you damage tyres generally (I ran 30psi in 2.35/2.5 non ust tyres in the Alps without issue, but pinched some 2.4 non ust RR's at GT!) I got on OK with non ust NBX, swamp things, cheap thai conti's, RR's, michelins.
5. a compressor or CO2 is your friend if you don't use 3 (which has made my compressor redundant)
6. Some sealant is good. I've used home made so far with success but it does dry out.

IIWY I'd just try 3 above and some tyres you already have and see how you get on rather than splash out on new tyres - they are pricey!

Don't forget that running the same tyre tubeless will place more stress on the sidewalls because it lacks the reinforcement of the innertube stiffening and supporting it under pressure, and you'll generally be running lower pressure - both with contribute to more flexing under riding.

You can use strong/sticky tape, but IMO the stans stuff is the best, and much stronger than anything else I've tried using in the past.

Since the OP has got Stan's 355 rims already, no point in ghettoing.

For best reliability and ease of fitting, yellow rim tape, appropriate valve and UST tyre. Mavic LUST have inflated first time with track pump, easily, on just yellow tape. Use sealant of your choice.

A normal [url= http://www.notubes.com/support_tire.php ]suitable tyre[/url] might work with yellow tape as well, or you might need to run a rimstrip, in which case ghetto is an option.

lots of opinions above but as the OP has ordered some stans rims, yellow tape, tubeless tyres and goo are the way to go.

i have stans rims. I run them with the yellow tape on, a stans valve and bontrager tubeless ready tyres with stans goo in. They work ace. The tyres pump straight up and when i took my winter tyres off they were full of sealed up thorns so it works.

i love em. I did discover at the Singletrack Weekender however that if a sharp rock puts a fairly big hole in your tyre, the goo wont seal it and an inner tube is needed. That was probably my fault though for running inappropriate tyres (thin bonty acxs) which are suitable at home but not so good for pointy rocks!

In comparison, i have tried stans rim strips with non-tubeless tyres on my other bike and cannot make them work (seems to be more to do with the tyres though as proper tubeless ones went straight up)

RealMan - Member
ghetto would probably work out to be about £10 cheaper, and much heavier. Probably not as reliable either. And all the stuff like valves and rim tape are re-usable/can do more then 1 wheel.

stan's tubless kit is between £50 - £70. i went ghetto for £20.
much heavier...how exactly?

i probably shouldn't say this but i haven't had a single problem with the ghetto method and have been riding them for about 5 months. and i ride quite hard and rocky stuff. LUST ignigtor rear, highroller single ply front.

Wrapped rims in one layer of this. http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tubes_Stan%27s_Rim_Tape/5360042194/

People don't really pay that much for 10m of Scotch Strapping Tape do they?
They normal price of that stuff is ~£2 for a 50m roll

Thats not a picture of Stans tape. Stans stuff is pale yellow.

I imagine that strapping tape to be a pretty good alternative though!

Ghetto worked for me - including the Lakes and a week in the Alps/Mega with no burps or problems at all.

Using a non-tubeless Big Earl and a UST High Roller with 819/719 rims respectively, both fine.

I'm in a similar situation to the OP. 355 rims and keen to try tubeless.

I have some Mountain Kings with plenty of life left in them and we get along well. They are 'Tubeless Ready', which I guess is not the same as a UST standard tyre, which will seat without the need for a sealant and cost more ££? Anyone confirm this while I'm at work and have minimal internet time!?

Realman, I've not used Stans, so I don't know if Joe's is any better. It stayed liquid longer than JRA wheelmilk, and when i used the Geax stuff i had to top it up with Joe's to get rid of a very slow leak.

Ignore the ghetto nonsense. You only need yellow tape and valves. I got Hope hoops with 355's the other week. Got them from Wheelpro and they arrived set up (top service). Stuck on a LUST Maxxis Crossmark, in with some sealant and pumped it up first go with a track pump. Marvellous.

OK.

stan's tubless kit is between £50 - £70. i went ghetto for £20.
much heavier...how exactly?

As he said already, hes got tubeless wheels, so he wouldnt need the kit. All he needs is the yellow rim tape and valves. Valves cost a tenner and rim tape costs £3.90. Rim tape weighs about 5g per wheel, and valves are equally light weight. BMX inner tubes are much heavier. And if ghetto cost you £20, I would say the proper method is cheaper as well.

Ignore the ghetto nonsense. You only need yellow tape and valves.

Realman, I've not used Stans, so I don't know if Joe's is any better. It stayed liquid longer than JRA wheelmilk, and when i used the Geax stuff i had to top it up with Joe's to get rid of a very slow leak.

I have found joes to seal ghetto systems better and stay liquid for a lot longer. It also doesn't seem to come through the sidewalls on a new tyre. Stan's does. Joe's gets my vote.

i've just switched to stans flows and upon jra's advice have bought the
flow rimstrips, i have been using rimstrips in my dt5.1's for a while and
never had any problems using ordinary maxxis tyres,i dont fancy the weight
penalty of ust tyres so for easy inflation and no burps(for me anyway!) the
rimstrips seem the way to go and they only weigh 59grms.

Each. So a little of a quarter of a pound in rotational mass.

stan's tubless kit is between £50 - £70. i went ghetto for £20.
much heavier...how exactly?

As he said already, hes got tubeless wheels, so he wouldnt need the kit. All he needs is the yellow rim tape and valves.

ok so i didn't read that he already had tubeless rims, in which case i don't know why the ghetto option is an option.

And if ghetto cost you £20, I would say the proper method is cheaper as well.

hmmm, don't understand your logic there mate. to convert none tubeless rims using ghetto style cost me £20 for everything. a stans tubeless kit is minimum £50 for everything. which is cheaper?

[i]1/ Reliability (don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere)[/i]

Every single tubless user I've EVER ridden with has at some point had to stick a tube in. Every. Single. One, either because the valve has failed, or the tyre has burped or a puncture. they all failed eventually

[i]2/ Weight (less is always better)[/i]

You may loose some weight, but none that the traditional measure of a "good dump" won't beat. I think for DH users who are using heafty/strong walled tyres, tubless has benefits, for general XC it's less clear cut

[i]3/ Performance (I ride like a spazz OAP anyway, what difference is it going to make) [/i]

Are you saying to yourself after every ride "I could do with lower pressure, and more grip, and yet with the ability to roll more easily"? If the honest answer to that is "Yes" then try tubless, if the answer is "Eh? What on earth are you going on about, I just want to ride", then maybe not...

Changing a flat trail-side is a faff, but it's an easy non complex cheap faff. Tubless can also be a faff but in a different and more sweary, and sometimes expensive way. IMO tubless tyres and rims designed to be that way is probably the way forward, arsing about with rim strips and cut up bits of BMX inner tube probably isn't.

Every single tubless user I've EVER ridden with has at some point had to stick a tube in. Every. Single. One, either because the valve has failed, or the tyre has burped or a puncture. they all failed eventually

This is a moot point. Yes I have had failures in the 2 years I have been running tubeless. I have had to put a tube in once and also a patch, tube box and tube for a slashed sidewall. One week on tubes sees me doing more trailside maintenance in puncture repairs than 2 years tubeless.

See my thread from a while ago but I won't be doing ghetto again. Still I'll probably go with 819 rims on my next wheels and try doing it properly as I get a lot of thorn punctures.

In short, the front tyre rolled/burped off the rim on a hairpin on my first ride. The rear punctured the other week and wouldn't seal. Only a small nick, maybe 2mm in the main tread.

In the meantime I'm going to go for puncture protextion strips, extra innertube wrapped round the other as this seems to work and is good extra excercise.

Every single tubless user I've EVER ridden with has at some point had to stick a tube in. Every. Single. One, either because the valve has failed, or the tyre has burped or a puncture. they all failed eventually

Once in 4 years have I had to use a tube to repair a tubeless tyre & I've never seen a single other incident with anyone else who I ride with

I've used ghetto tubeless for nearly two years now and had no punctures or burping..

I think ghetto tubeless has advantages as your less likely to burp air because the tube seals to the tyre and when the tyre is pushed away from the rim the tube goes with it. with normal tubeless the tyre would burp in this situation. I use maxxis tyres with no probs and actually find that the kevlar bead versions seal a lot easier than the steel.

I also make up my own sealant with latex and put glitter in it to help plug up the bigger holes. You can put in a nice colour glitter to match your colour scheme. it's pretty.

Reliability?

UST tyres, yellow rim tape. A splash of sealant (I dont understand people who run without it TBH). The tyres really seat well into the Stans rims (I run flows and nobby nics or fat alberts) and have to be physically popped off when changing tyres.

Light weight and reliable? Tubeless ready tyres with sealant. Tyres normally lighter, but need the sealant. Or I've found the new Schwalbe Nobby nics light and reliable for my 16 stone, run at normal pressures or slightly below.

Light weight? Rim strip with ordinary tyres (and sealant, but you'll need more to seal the tyre carcass). More difficult to put on and remove tyres in my experience.

Solution in search of a problem for you Druidh.

How often do you puncture? I have seen more trailside maintanence with tubeless than not - partly because repairing a tubeless takes far longer than swapping a tube.

I don't buy the decreased weight unless you run without sealant. Surely the sealant weighs as much as a tube.

What advantages do you think you will get? Betcha you abandon it within a year

partly because repairing a tubeless takes far longer than swapping a tube.

About the same, I'd say but you have to do it a lot less often so a nett gain

Not sure how you work out it'll take [b]far[/b] longer

Uplink - just what I have seen with folk with tubeless on the trail. Getting the tyres off is harder and you have to muck about with the valve.

I get punctures so rarely anyway that for me it simply is not worth it. One puncture that I can remember in the last year / several thousand miles. No hawthorn hedges round here

Getting the tyres off is harder and you have to muck about with the valve.

Most people just use normal tyres, not UST & the valve is just the same as an inner tube one

If it's not worth it for you, that's fine but it certainly doesn't take any longer to do a trail repair, it's - essentially - the same process

I've not had a single puncture [that I know of] in 4 years
For me it's pretty much fit & forget

druidh - you fitted yours yet ?

Fitted mine this morning , the tubeless part was easy .

How ever im not impressed with the build quality of mine ....

they are +/- 3mms out of true and are sitting off set to the disk side in both front and rear - merida frame and 09 sid forks. Not to mention major twanging when i set off on them. Doesnt sound like alot but its a brand new out the box set of 400 quid wheels ....

Gonna stick em on the jig tomorrow and sort em out but they seem to be 5mm out to the disk side. My old DT wheels and my even older hope on 717s fitted the frame/forks fine without having to tweek em ... so its not the frame/forks

They are light how ever . If buying id reccomend getting them from roger at wheelpro. He sorts em out before you get em !

[img] [/img]

Now that wheel is sat right down in the drop outs , everything is seated correctly on the hub and bearing front and they are brand new out the box from hope this morning ....

Scarily, I think +/- 3mm is within tolerance for machine built disc wheels...

Only the cheapest of wheels are built by machines, those are hand built.

EDIT Oh and LOL at TJ ranting about something he's never used, nearly as good as nickc

I though Hoops were machine built

check your forks.... we had some rebas that were cast wrong and made wheels look shagged.

Machine built, hand finished IIRC. ZTR's are a piece of piss to set up tubeless though.

Key thing is to suspend the wheel horizontally on its side on a bucket or washing up bowl, then you can pinch the tyre to seal any holes. Worked first time for me with a crappy track pump.

oh and tj - you are wrong on this.

i wish people would stop thinking its about the weight.

its about the decreased pressures you can run and the benefit of grip.

in the alps, the tubeless gang were all perfect all week. the tubed guys were the ones we were stopping for.

and when have you ridden with tubeless people and had to stand about waiting? the tyres go on and off as easy as normal ones.

in fact i am willing to lend you my pro 2's on 4.1's with a joes kit to show you how awesome tubeless is.

just about every other pneumatic tyre in the work is tubeless... why do we tube bikes?

my key was to inflate the tire using a good quality track pump ...no bother using standard SPS non ust small block8s

once they leaked , stuck in 59ml of stans

reinflated

listened for the leaks and shook the tire to get the sealant to seal the holes ....

Mark both my other sets of wheels that are fine in other bikes are fine in the forks and frame - the hope wheels are just as offset in my other forks (all be in 29er forks) but spacings the same.

Its a 5/10 min job for me to sort it but it would be annoying if i was unable to do it and it meant another trip to the bike shop.....

Rode with a guy in the alps who could repair a tubeless leak quicker than changing a tube. He just used an awl with some rope covered in rubber solution jabbed through the hole, then trimmed off.

Rode with a guy in the alps who could repair a tubeless leak quicker than changing a tube. He just used an awl with some rope covered in rubber solution jabbed through the hole, then trimmed off.

TJ - you may be correct, but at least I'm willing to try things out. If I don't try, I'll never know what I might be missing.

Mark - Several times. The infamous luke twice, Tree once,

Constant threads on here with folk having troubles with them

I hate the feel of low pressure tyres squirming around and am not troubled by pinch flats anyway cos I run at reasonable pressures. I have tubeless ready rims but I like to change tyres depending on where I am riding

I see the point if you ride where punctures are an issue. Punctures are not an issue for me

Why do we tube bikes? KISS

markd
check your forks.... we had some rebas that were cast wrong and made wheels look shagged.

druid, yer always up here in the mountains.. i would go for a tubeless rim and a tubeless tyre if i were you.its possible to inflate 819s/contis from around 10psi with no fluid if everythings clean enough.this could be handy when yer stuck on the top of a mountain (IF anything should happen)

forget ghetto with the stuff you ride/places you find yerself in ;O)

currently i have a bit of fluid in them just incase i get a bit of glass or thorns (from the highland cacti)

I struggle to follow the terminology used for tubeless never having tried it, but the reason that I would consider trying to work it all out is if it really does help with punctures - I am plagued by them, every ride without fail. So - does it really help reduce them?

How do reduced pressures help in our climate - doesn't a lower pressure cause the tyre to "stick" in mud more? Or is that not the case?

ononeorange

Tubeless should virtually stop punctures by virtue of the sealant that is in the tyre. No innertube to split either.

Huge holes in the tyres might not seal but you probably won't even notice thorns.

The effect of reduced pressures is much debated and rather debatable.

Tubeless can help if you're getting loads of punctures. In my real world reality, (as opposed to forum reality 🙂 ) Tubeless increases the puncture free time by about 2-3 times what you'd get with regular tubes. In other words if you go 3 months in between punctures then expect 6-9 months with tubeless. Having said that it depends...I had 3 punctures in 3 rides using XC single ply tyres run tubeless, and every other tubeless rider I ride with regularly has had failures so from a personal POV, I'm not convinced by the claims of absolute puncture prof-ness.

Lower pressure helps by giving better rolling resistance, and more grip. Again, personally I run my tyres at 35 psi, get plenty of grip, don't really need/want to go much faster, and don't suffer pinch flats much.

Anyone who claims 'absolute puncture proofedness' is just being too enthusiastic.

Tubeless with sealant greatly improves resistance to punctures in general but by no means makes you immune.

When I shifted to tubeless I experimented with a good few combinations and different methods - after the first few air burps running the pressure too low, I didn't get a puncture for nearly 5 years. In the last 4 months on the same terrain I've suffered three episodes of cut tyres. One sidewall that wouldn't repair and two tread area rips, both of which were fixed with anchovies trail side, although one later failed overnight in my garage.

Thorn punctures [i]are[/i] virtually eliminated.

One thing that doesn't get mentioned much on tubeless discussions is lightweight tubes with latex added. If all you're bothered about is punctures, a lightweight tube that you can charge with 40-50ml of sealant with still probably weigh a bit less that a standard tube and will be virtually immune to thorn punctures. It might be slightly more prone to pinch flats though.

Thanks, TJ, Nickc and officer.

yeah, and pinch flats is one of the biggest reasons most folk would go tubeless.