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Specialized can price their products however they see fit. Its not illegal or amoral to offer a complete product for more than the cost of the components.
But, if you knew anything about bikes you would have to be a complete fool to be spending more the the RRP of the components on a complete bike.
It will be bought by people who read lifestyle rather than mountain bike magazines.
Then you see the engine and the whole facade falls away to be replaced by this vision of a plump IT middle manager using his wads of cash to try to compensate for his lack of…
I used to think like this. But then I thought, you know what - if you have money, why shouldn't you buy the things you want? Wouldn't it be more ridiculous to think 'well I'd like this but I don't want people to see me on it, I'm worried what they might think of me' ?
I'm sure some people think I'm a right bell-end going out in my (bottom of the range) £100 Assos Lycra top and shorts, and my two-grand road bike. I'm sure people think I'm trying to show off and pretend I'm a pro. Some people probably look at that and then laugh at my gut. But really, I'm just out for a ride aren't I?
But, if you knew anything about bikes you would have to be a complete fool to be spending more the the RRP of the components on a complete bike.
Or I know a lot about bikes but can't be be bothered to spend the time and effort in building up and just want the off the shelf bike now. So what if it costs me more, I am not concerned about money and have more than I know what to do with hence buying a £13K bike.
Surely you can’t compare an eBike to a classic car?
No, he's comparing it to a Boxster... 😉
This bike and its pricing relative to others doesnt seem too much different from various apple products to me.
There are other bikes from different brands that are nearly as good (or maybe even better depending on what you're after) for half the price. Same goes for most apple stuff.
It'll be bought by people that dont care that its more expensive than buying the components and building up, they just want that warm glow of knowing that its a very good bike, from a very good brand, with very good after sales support all bought from a shop down the road.
Just hope that the motor is reliable in this version.......
I wont be buying one - way too much money for me - like most apple products
Some time back in the late 80’s the then boss of Porsche essentially said “If you want a cheap Porsche, then buy one second hand” and he culled all the “cheaper” versions and basic models, everyone said he was mad to do that, and surely it would spell the end of Porsche…And obviously now Porsche isn’t one of the largest car manufacturers in the worl
The problem with that analogy is that its completely wrong. As in the 80s and early 90s (when they stopped doing 'cheap' cars Porsche nearly died. And it was the introduction of the mass produced (Toyota inspired) 986 and its platform sharing 996 that 'saved' Porsche, and they sold in far, far higher numbers and with a bigger profit margin than their previous offerings in the 70s and 80s, and lead to the introduction of the Cayenne and other more mainstream models.
THAT is what made Porsche the most profitable car company in the world - before that they nearly went under.
Sorry for the massive OT there!
As for the bike - they clearly want to be driving themselves right to the top of the market, and the fact that year in year out they sell out of the high end stuff proves theres a market.
However, as always, that opens up a market for those more open to unknown brands, experimentation, etc.
In a year or so time, once supply chains recover a little more, and the 'man in a shed' can purchase a crate of EP8 motors, I fully expect to see Cotic, Bird, Privateer, Calibre, AN other,s etc etc coming out with much more affordable Ebikes and hopefully, hopefully, E-bikes available as frame only!
Reading through, there are a number of posts pointing out that Specialized will sell all of what they produce and potentially sell out quickly. This tells us nothing about whether it's overpriced (it is) or how many rich people there are out there. What it tells us is Specialized produces S-Works models in very low numbers, because they don't sell many. Even less so when we're talking about electric bikes that won't be given out to sponsored racers.
Everyone I know with a S-Works bike seems to have only bought it because they could get trade prices.
What I want to know is if there are actually any IT middle managers here? Certainly ain't me.
If it were a 1k bike and had lower end components of a £750 bike people would be taking this thread very differently....
It seems we view bikes in the high-end level very differently to the low end.
High end = people who can afford it wil buy it, what's your problem....
Lower end = it's a rip off they won't sell....
People are less concerned with value at the top end, simply.
Is the 13k bike 1/3rd more than sum of its parts, at RRP, like your £750 of parts bike for a grand?
I'd still only spend £750 ( or less with sales) and build it my self, as I'm not stupid.
They need to price these to take account of returns and warranty repairs/replacements.
Too much for me. I'll stick to a more budget brand like....Santa Cruz.
Anyway, I know it's all in the eye of the beholder and that but...
Visually, it's not really tidy looking at all.
You have that paint fade on the rear section of the front 'triangle' then a solid break line on the downtube.
The seat stay isn't in line with the top tube. No matter, at least the shock lines through....oh no wait, no it doesn't, it's a slightly different angle to the seatstay and the toptube.. This stuff matters! 😅
The motor has to be one of the ugliest of all the manufacturers. It's like a massive blob of drool hanging down waiting to fall from the chops of a st Bernard.
It's massive!
It absolutely SCREAMS ebike!
Most of the other manufacturers have really slimmed the motors down with the latest iterations.
I think they look better in the flesh. I've seen a few of the last model about but still, that motor.. 😖
If I was paying that much I'd want it to have missed a few of the branches on the way down....
The thing with the Levo is when it is working properly, it rides really, really nicely nicely. The motor is powerful and quiet with great "feel" and response. This bike is not massively different from the current Levo, but loads of current owners will want to upgrade due to the new TCU and the "revised" geometry.
If I had a 2019 or 2020 Levo I would value the 4 year warranty over the newer model with a 2 year warranty.
Pity is so many people just stick them in Boost all the time though. That turns the pedals into little more than an on/off switch for the motor.
I'm surprised no-ones marketed a mid/high-end MTB without the torque measuring stuff (like the Bafang aftermarket motor). Theres definitely a market for it given the way these things are used. Surely would be good for improved reliability too??
I don't understand the perma-turbo derestricted mindset. There was a guy on the Facebook group asking about commuting on it. His was derestricted, so he has continual assistance, and the standard gearing 36/12 at a cadence of 90rpm has you travelling at nearly 40kmph. Seemingly this was not enough and he wanted to fit a bigger chainring...
You have that paint fade on the rear section of the front ‘triangle’ then a solid break line on the downtube.
I struggle with that much more than I GAS about the price. At least make it look 13ks worth?
They need to price these to take account of returns and warranty repairs/replacements
Hmm, so rather than doing their design and testing to a standard that results in a reliable product, Specialized just pass the financial onus straight to customers? Electric bikes have been around long enough now and the technology isn't rocket science. Do it properly, or leave it to the motorcycle manufacturers. But having a battery and motor isn't why Specialized are overpriced. They recently unveiled a basic aluminium hardtail frame...slap a different paint job on, chuck in a seatpost worth a tenner and suddenly it's £1100!
“Pity is so many people just stick them in Boost all the time though. That turns the pedals into little more than an on/off switch for the motor.”
I ride mine loads in turbo. It’s only 250W, I can put out more power uphill on my own so how hard I pedal makes a big difference uphill. On the flat I often take it past the 15.5mph limit so then it’s me doing all the work.
Might be like an on/off switch for the motor if you’re a feeble/lazy pedaller but it isn’t for everyone.
You have that paint fade on the rear section of the front ‘triangle’ then a solid break line on the downtube.
That genuinely put me off buying the stumpy, graphic designer should be going back to school.
250W nominal. The 1.3 puts out 550W peak and the 2.1 560W peak. What is your output and how long can you sustain it? The motor helps a lot.
“ 250W nominal. The 1.3 puts out 550W peak and the 2.1 560W peak. What is your output and how long can you sustain it? The motor helps a lot.”
I don’t know, I just like pedalling bikes and based on my weight and reasonable uphill pace, especially for shorter bursts, I must have a fair amount.
Next time I go up my regular commute climb I’ll do it in turbo but pedalling as lightly as possible and see how long it takes. I did it yesterday with the power off because I’d forgotten to charge the bike so then I’ll have numbers for unassisted but fairly pedalling hard, turbo and pedalling hard and turbo but pedalling soft.
Doesn't the BLevo app give you power data from man and machine?
“ Doesn’t the BLevo app give you power data from man and machine?”
So it does! However that does mean spending £8.99 on an app and I’m rather frugal...
Says the man with a multi-thousand pound bicycle... 😂
£13k is a lot of money to spend on a bike. If I could afford that I’d have four or five great bikes as opposed to one ugly looking eBike.
“ Says the man with a multi-thousand pound bicycle… 😂”
If multi is between 2 and 3 of my money!
At least make it look 13ks worth?
That's the thing. While I know £10k+ bikes are silly, at least some of them look quite sexy.
But no e-bike has ever looked sexy. Or anywhere near. At the very best some might pass for normal bikes if you squint a bit, usually thanks to two-tone downtubes.
Am I right?
Not really.
Some ebikes do look pretty good, I think anyway.
Orbea have got the knack at the moment I reckon.
The lines follow down beautifully on this Wild fs.
And this Rise has a really slimmed down look.
This Mondraker is pretty nice too imho.
The Rise does look good but the Wild looks like a tank.
Nah, they all look like they have fat stomachs.
This tells us nothing about whether it’s overpriced (it is) or how many rich people there are out there
Basic economics suggests that if they sell them all, they're not overpriced. Plenty of people buy them at retail.
No, basic economics (whatever that means here), suggests nothing of the sort. It's perfectly possible for something to be overpriced and still sell. Either the customer doesn't realise, doesn't care, or isn't paying full price.
No, basic economics (whatever that means here), suggests nothing of the sort. It’s perfectly possible for something to be overpriced and still sell. Either the customer doesn’t realise, doesn’t care, or isn’t paying full price.
That's a pretty long winded way of saying 'I think it's too expensive'.
How much do you think it should be? What wouldn't be overpriced?
Less! I ain't sitting here after midnight trying to work out what it should cost. Some of us have got to get up for work in the morning to afford our next bike 🙄
They have nailed it. Looks ace, well looks like the kenevo which looks ace and finally modern geometry.
I wouldn't buy another brand until the dealer support is in place, aka Berkshire bikes levels of customer support.
Doubt I would spend that on a bike, although I would be more likely to spend that on a bike than a car.
If I tot up my kenevo with upgrades I'm at 10k plus easily.
People aren't being forced to buy it and cheaper manufacturers/models are available.
So how long until £20k bikes are with us? I’m going with 2030
No, basic economics (whatever that means here), suggests nothing of the sort. It’s perfectly possible for something to be overpriced and still sell
Exactly. I could sell you my bike for £20,000. It cost £1,000 so I would say £20,000 would definitely be overpriced but you could still pay me that for it.
It is overpriced if it costs more than the sum of its RRP parts as pretty much every other bike doesn't. Based on that it should probably cost £11,000 which doesn't make a lot of difference if someone is spending £11,000 they may as well spend £13,000. Like the tight arsed among us spending £1,000 instead of £800.
if they sell them all, they’re not overpriced
Exactly. Even if they sell most at rrp, not all.
If you can sell £10ks market value of physical product product for £13k then it's not overpriced - if you think it's poor value that's different but you're missing the value of brand. All those years of marketing, reputation, availability and service all add up and give a company a return. And you can't overprice that aspect either. 13k here is the value of the parts and the brand.
13k here is the value of the parts and the brand
The brand in this case would put me off, especially at 13k.... the 'value' of the own brand parts would also put me off for the money they are asking. I'm obviously not the target market but I'd rather buy from a smaller manufacturers than the likes of specialized/Trek/Giant etc.
Pricing in over estimated brand value seems to be a particular issue in the cycle industry. Specialized would be fairly close to the bottom for me.
The Rise does look good but the Wild looks like a tank.
Oi! That's the one I'm getting! 😂
But yes, it's all subjective but they're different bikes for different intentions.
The Rise is essentially a trail bike with less torque, lightweight and slender, the Wild fs is an enduro/big hitter/gnar to the max bike with a way burlier build to suit its intentions and with around twice the battery capacity.
You currently can't not have that massive battery, but I think they've done an amazing job with what they have.
I think the top tube flowing into the seat stay always seems to make for a bike that looks right to me. I think because I'm coming from a diet of jump hardtail aesthetics.
would put me off
for me
Lucky for (or more likely, planned for by) Specialized, there’s hundreds (thousands?) that aren’t you.
I think the semi-fat e-bikes like the Rise and Levo SL are kind-of the exceptions that prove the rule, in that they show the compromises needed to get closer to an appealing aesthetic.
But I wonder whether standard e-bikes only look grotesque to us habitual MTBers? Do newcomers or non-bikers see them with a blank slate? (to mix my metaphors)
And yes, the Mondraker you posted and also the Commencal Meta e-bike (and maybe the YT Decoy) are all examples of eebs which look kind-of good until you notice how they've concealed the downtube and motor.
Lucky for (or more likely, planned for by) Specialized, there’s hundreds (thousands?) that aren’t you.
Far from the only ones who have noticed Specialized are overpriced, often unreliable, with poor warranty support and take far too much unwarranted legal action against other companies.
But I wonder whether standard e-bikes only look grotesque to us habitual MTBers? Do newcomers or non-bikers see them with a blank slate? (to mix my metaphors)
I'd imagine 99% of the newcomers who are coming in with ebike desires couldn't care a monkeys what it looks like, as long as it has pretty paint and a motor they can easily derestrict.
Do newcomers or non-bikers see them with a blank slate? (to mix my metaphors)
I was given a backhanded compliment when out with my v1 Levo,’Bikes are starting to look much better, since they’ve become middle class status symbols.’
Thanks, dick.
The looks of ebikes don't bother me - remember when we all baulked at 29rs?
It'll just become a new norm.
The lines follow down beautifully on this Wild fs.
They also don't flow so well around the seat stay area, snappy snappy 🙂
But I wonder whether standard e-bikes only look grotesque to us habitual MTBers?
Admittedly, there are a lot of hideous looking e-bikes out there. Pretty much every single Whyte, Haibike & the older stuff with external batteries etc. I admittedly ride mine more than my normal bike these days (weekday laps/power hours) and leave the other for the weekend when I have more time, or not knackered from doing too much in the week. But I don't wince at it's uglyness - the Rail is one of the more normal looking bikes, with a fatter downtube, but the Bosch motor is quite compact to others.
Where Bosch lets the side down is UX controls. If they came out with something similar to Shimano's system (so they can sell across brands), they would clean up.
They also don’t flow so well around the seat stay area, snappy snappy 🙂
Got any links/ more info on the snapping - this is the first I've heard about a problem, and as an owner I'd like to understand more - if there's a problem.
Is this thread still rumbling along?
All these bikes will be sold out by now anyway.
“But I wonder whether standard e-bikes only look grotesque to us habitual MTBers?”
I wonder if it’s like motorbikes pre and post aero fairings?
I rather like how my Levo looks but maybe I just see it with rose-tinted glasses because I enjoy riding it so much?
From my perspective what I like about this new Levo is that there’s almost nothing I prefer vs my older one - I like my 29” rear wheel and longer chainstays, I don’t need the head angle any slacker (mine’s at 65 deg), I don’t want a steeper seat tube, I’ve already got a 160mm short offset fork, my legs are long enough that I can fit a 185mm dropper in and I don’t want a screen on the top tube, a few lights is plenty of info.
Hopefully if my motor fails I’ll be able to get the new version with the stronger belt. I haven’t had water/motor issues but the new charging port sealing is giving me some ideas about ghetto solutions for really wet days out.
The brand in this case would put me off, especially at 13k…. the ‘value’ of the own brand parts would also put me off for the money they are asking. I’m obviously not the target market but I’d rather buy from a smaller manufacturers than the likes of specialized/Trek/Giant etc.
Brand is subjective isn't it, that's the point. Some will value the widely recognised premium level of the S-Works name over a small brand's specialist credibility or rarity value. All a brand needs to do is be in tune with its market and what will build brand value there ('all'... as if it's that easy/cheap/predictable)
I rather like how my Levo looks but maybe I just see it with rose-tinted glasses because I enjoy riding it so much?
There's definitely an element of both habituation to looks (e.g. 29in wheels mentioned above) and of bonding with bikes and loving them for what they can do (rather than just their looks).
I don’t wince at it’s uglyness – the Rail is one of the more normal looking bikes, with a fatter downtube
Yep the Rail and other eebs with the chunky downtube and less pot-bellied sump are getting there. Even the new Vitus is alright. I could imagine growing quite fond of one if I was fitting 1,000m descending in a quick hour's post-work spin.
Might be a bit churlish to say it, but they're all "good looking for a e-bike" rather than just "good looking" still, in my mind.
Purely from a looks perspective - Trek E-Caliber for me please!
"There’s definitely an element of both habituation to looks (e.g. 29in wheels mentioned above)"
When I put my Levo back together after sending the fork and shock off for a service it looked really weird and I couldn't work out why - something out of balance visually with my relative skinny (not a 2.6" 2.6) front tyre and all the space around it. Then I realised that I hadn't put the mudguard back on, just one of those little bent bit of plastic things RRP Enduroguard. Mudguard back on, bike looks normal.
Got any links/ more info on the snapping – this is the first I’ve heard about a problem, and as an owner I’d like to understand more – if there’s a problem.
If you do Facebook, join the Orbea Wild fs group. There's quite a few on there but, as has been pointed out to me a few times when I get my worried head on(I have one on order), the few on there is an absolute drop in the ocean to the amount of folk with no issues.
There seems to be a pattern with hairline cracks developing in the aluminium swingarms near to where the cable exits the chainstay near the brake mount welds.
As I understand it, Orbea have been providing replacements that are beefed up in that area.
Far from the only ones who have noticed Specialized are overpriced, often unreliable, with poor warranty support and take far too much unwarranted legal action against other companies.
S-Works are premium priced for a specific group of people, same as Yeti and Santa Cruz I don't think there's any evidence that Specialized are any more or less reliable than any other bike manufacturer is there? You're plain wrong on the warranty support as many here (including me) will tell you how painless and easy it is, You want SRAM for legal disputes...(see SRAM vs Fox, SRAM vs Shimano, SRAM trigger shifter, cassette hyperglide patent violation and so on and on and on...)
If you do Facebook, join the Orbea Wild fs group. There’s quite a few on there but, as has been pointed out to me a few times when I get my worried head on(I have one on order), the few on there is an absolute drop in the ocean to the amount of folk with no issues.
There seems to be a pattern with hairline cracks developing in the aluminium swingarms near to where the cable exits the chainstay near the brake mount welds.
Cheers - I dont do facebook.
Is it just the alu chainstays/seats stays? or are the carbon ones also affected?
13K? I could be hitting up Swinley with my homeboy on a pair of Sur-Rons for that.
You’re plain wrong on the warranty support as many here (including me) will tell you how painless and easy it is, You want SRAM for legal disputes…(see SRAM vs Fox, SRAM vs Shimano, SRAM trigger shifter, cassette hyperglide patent violation and so on and on and on…)
No I'm not wrong. I've actually bought a lot from Specialized over the years, including 3 bikes, 2 carbon wheelsets and probably a hundred smaller items. Each time I've had a warranty issue they've been slow, unresponsive and either failed to fix the issue or tried to blame the customer and charge for it. Contrast that to dealing with Kona, Trek, Giant and others who were lightning quick and bent over backwards to help.
Have a look back at Specialized legal disputes for yourself, particularly with regard to naming of their products.
Have a look back at Specialized legal disputes for yourself, particularly with regard to naming of their products.
yeah I know what you mean, trouble is they kind of have a point. They have got the trademark on some things like Roubaix and Epic, in the same way that Trek have for "Alp d'Huez" in some territories* and Cannondale have for "All Mountain" in some places. You might not like it, and you can guess at the value of the PR disaster of threatening smaller companies over it, but legally, they have the right...
Specialized warrantied a Roval carbon wheel that I'd broken (not manufacture defect) no questions asked, just sent a new rim. Given the experience I've had with other companies, that's a win in my book.
* Nope, I didn't know that either...
Cheers – I dont do facebook.
Is it just the alu chainstays/seats stays? or are the carbon ones also affected?
Just the aluminium ones.
No I’m not wrong. I’ve actually bought a lot from Specialized over the years,
I'd suggest your talking rubbish too or old experiences. For all of the Levo motor issues, no one has complained that Spesh haven't stepped up & dealt with the issues asap. Yep, some dealers are rubbish, but that the dealers not spesch support. Look at them now, a large fire at their UK head quarters not long back, yet business as normal.
I’d suggest your talking rubbish too or old experiences
Really!? Most recently last year and before that three years ago. I dealt with Specialized directly here and in the US on the last two occasions because the dealer wasn't getting anywhere, not their fault, or I bought directly in the first place.