[Closed] 12spd regret?

Have you ever thought you needed more with your existing set up?

What's the cost of replacing like for like?

With the money you save what could you upgrade instead?

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket then do it, if not.....

Not 12 speed, but hand on heart I can't see any noticeable benefit between the 11-42, 11 full XT speed setup on my full suss and the 11-42, 10 speed (XT/Sunrace/Saint mongrel) on my hardtail.

Sure, there's one more cog, but the range is identical and I'm not even close to good enough to miss that extra step in the ratio.

Why do you want 12 speed? If it's for extra range, a new chain + wider range cassette (+ possibly a goat link on your rear mech) would give you that at a fraction of the cost of Eagle.

If it's the shiny, gold coloured bling... Follow your dreams, it looks mega!

Have you considered the Garbaruk products?? Bling, light, great ranges, and can reuse your current mech etc.....

https://www.garbaruk.com/cassettes/11-speed.html

EDIT: PS> I have no experience of them so they may be rubbish for all I know 🙂

Nope, no way I'd go back to 11spd. Others opinion may vary but in my experience it seems like Shimano & Sram had a major brain-fart when it came to designing their 11-speed gear. Pretty much all the 11-speed Sram stuff I've ridden, right from NX through to XX1 felt like it was about to fall apart any moment, while Shimano seemed to try and make their kit more Sram like and in the process ruined everything that was good about their 10-speed kit, which was always faultless for me. I actually "upgraded" from a 10-speed Saint shifter (basically rebranded XTR but waaaaaaay cheaper), XT mech with a OneUp RAD cage & 11-40t XT cassette with Hope T-rex to a full M8000 XT setup and genuinely wanted to go back. M8000 is not Shimano's finest hour!

Now on both bikes I have Sram Eagle, one with full X01 Eagle and the other with GX Eagle and aside from one instance of a jockey wheel failing, they've both been perfect. The shifting is slick and consistent, the gear range is perfect and the ergonomics are great. I say go for it, the price some places are chucking Eagle groupsets out for at the minute it's a no brainer!

I have 11 speed X0 on my hardtail and GX Eagle on my Spark.

I love Eagle (crisp shifting and nice to have that last 50t cog sometimes), but I don't miss it on my hardtail as I thought I would.

After having a re-think, I'd only upgrade to 12 speed Eagle if it was comparable in price to an 11 speed setup. Both my GX and X0 are just as good as each other in the shifting department.

I must admit, I do prefer the feel of Sram over Shimano, but never really had issues with any of them.

If you already have Shimano, I'd even look into a bigger range cassette for the existing 11 speed setup and maybe upgrade to an XTR shifter?

I've had Sram X9 (10 speed) through to NX, GX 11 speed and GX Eagle and the shiting has always been excellent and I've never managed to break anything.

try the sunrace 11-46 11 speed cassette. It's better than the Shimano 11-46 and wider than the 11-42..

My trail bike was 2x11 (11-40 cassette) XT setup. Then I bought a new AM/Enduro bike which came with Eagle 12 speed. Ive been very impressed with 1x12, enough to make me convert the trail bike to 1x too. I Didn't want too splash too much cash, so just went with a 11-46 XT cassette and 32t NW chainring. Too be honest there's not much difference between the two setups, yes the extra range of the Eagle is nice, but I've not found myself without a high or low enough gear on the 1x11 either.
In short if buying a new bike get 1x12, but otherwise save your cash and just get a wider range 11 speed cassette.

my kit goes far enough back that my original 1X set up was 36T front with 11-36 rear on 26" and dropping to a 34t when going 29er. I actually took the Eagle stuff off my new bike and put on the 11s with 10-42t and a 32t ring that I had in the garage already, as I really didn't ever see me using the 50t and have still never wished for it.

"My XT M8000 cassette is too worn to accept a new chain, so this sounds like an opportunity to consider a drivetrain update"
You know you could just keep running your current chain/cassette/chainring for a long time yet before it starts to skip unbearably/the chain starts snapping regularly? Then swap all at once for new of your choosing

Cheaper options are available than XTR/X01

But frankly, if you're unsure whether you actually need the range, or smaller gaps, or whatever, just pop a Sunrace 11-46 on - they were less than 40 quid posted from BikeDiscount last week.

I'm sure the rest of that £500 would be better spent elsewhere on the bike, or in the new bike fund.

When is someone going to bring a wide range cassette out that's a reasonable cost and doesn't weigh 500g+

I think that would be the tipping point for it being the best option for 99% of bikes.

Not deliberately trolling although I understand this is likely to be an inflammatory suggestion:

Given you’ve already considered SRAM drivetrains and therefore XD freehub bodies and shifter ergonomics and the stated criteria are useful extra range but not at a weight penalty and without silly cost, have you considered 11sp GX with a nicer shifter? It does actually tick all your boxes combined with better lifespan of cassette and no jockey-gate situation.

When is someone going to bring a wide range cassette out that’s a reasonable cost and doesn’t weigh 500g+

Isn't that GX Eagle?

I finally wore out my XT M8000 cassette yesterday, 13 months on it.
[img] [/img]
That, the aluminium 42T ring, is how bad it can get before it stops engaging (it just wouldn't hold under load on steep hills in Calderdale yesterday).

Unlike you, I'm taking what could be viewed as a downgrade - an all-steel Sunrace 11-46 cassette, coupled with a 34T chainring rather than my current 32T. Upshot is I get the same(ish) low gear, a faster high gear, and a more durable drivetrain that I won't be throwing away just because one aluminium cog has lost it.

Bikepacking.com reckon that the best bang-for-buck with SRAM 12spd is GX but with the XO1 shifter - http://www.bikepacking.com/gear/sram-eagle-review/

I've two bikes set up 1x10 and one set up 1x11 all are 11-42 cassettes and I've not wanted for more range. Chainrings range from 26T or 28T on the fat bike to 30T/32T on the others. I'm only occasionally in the top gear on any of the bikes, similarly I'm rarely in the bottom gear - once you go below somewhere in the region of 17 gear inches then you start to expend more and more effort in staying upright.

My natural cadence is in the 70-90rpm range http://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence shows that with a 30T chainring to 11T cog at 90rpm I'm doing 36kmh. I spin out at around 120rpm or 48kmh, I've only ever once managed to hold that sort of pace on the flat for ten minutes or so, hardly a reason to go 10T at the back.

I'd sooner have a 12spd 11-42T or 11-46T that doesn't have the huge gaps that the SRAM wide range cassettes have. Currently the only one like that is the Shimano 10-45T but at £250+ (for a f****** cassette!)

Cassette/Chain/Ring/cable maybe some new jockey wheels and a spare afternoon in the garage and you'l wonder why you wanted to throw away £500

Why does normal wear and tear always mandate a whole new drivetrain?
I'd leave getting that extra an sprocket until you next buy a whole new bike, it'll add to the novelty.

Has anyone consciously upgraded to 12spd and regretted it?

No, and hope to be doing it again shortly.

No functional issues with the "upgrade" but doesn't suit my "needs" the best.

I didn't use the range of a 10-50 cassette nor did I need all the gear steps, it all worked very well together but felt gears were wasted and the chainline compromised for no reason, also still can't get over how massive eagle mechs are, how sloppy gx/nx eagle mechs are and the missive cost of the x01 and xx1. Cassettes are big and heavy went to -

Sunrace 11-46 10sp cassetee, XT 11 speed mech, sram 11 speed shifter, 10 speed chain is where ive ended up, just that bit neater, quieter and consistent shifting with most of the range, lighter weight and better chainline.

My Sunrace 11-50 11spd cassette meshed perfectly well with a new chain. Only the 50 is alloy (I think) so it should last ok as it won't see too much action. Handy to have as a bail out of it all gets too much and still have a reasonable gear for tarmac sections.

Thanks for your opinions everyone. I am glad to see advocates to both approaches...

My chain is broken, twisted and dead. There is no rescuing it. I have run it and the cassette it to the ground. After 3 years of use it is time for replacement. For £150 it can get a refresh with new XT cassette, chain and rear mech (not immediately necessary, but will improve shift performance).

I understand the 'just upgrade when you get a new bike' approach. But as I always only build up a trigger's broom bike from parts, this is actually for a bike that is 9 months old and had the old drivetrain fitted to it. So I kind of feel like the new bike deserves some new kit.

I think if XT 12spd was out, and if it didn't weigh as much as GX Eagle and I could upgrade for ~£300, it would be a no-brainer.

Does GX Eagle really weight that much over XT? Seems to get specced on lightweight XC builds and doesn't affect things much.

Bike Discount.de have Eagle upgrade kits for around £220 (just need the freehub too).

When I looked at this over a year ago, GX eagle worked out a touch lighter than XT...

I'm pretty pleased with the gear range and chain retention of eagle. X-sync 2 is loads better than the first version. Cassette is a bit of a lump and it's not ideal for unsprung mass, but I'm not exactly a racing snake or 'owt.

Took 12s Eagle off my new bike as the rear mech seemed to collect twigs and crap causing it to end up in the rear wheel.The GX Eagle rear mech seems just to flimsy.I Went back to 11 speed GX but probably didn't give the Eagle a fair chance?

Ha! Serves me right for making stupid assumptions. I though the GX cassette sounded heavy, but it is actually comparable to XT m8000. So GX Eagle looks like a no brainer, and XO1 an upgrade.

Love it when a plan comes together 🙂

I had a 2 x 10 setup and my new bike came with 1 x 12.

I preferred 2x10, the 1 times always seemed to be a compromise and left me changing between two finding one to low the other to high.

Not sure I see the point. Eagle cassettes are either really expensive or really heavy, the mechs are vulnerable and the range is not really a killer point for me. 11 - 46 covers all of my needs, and, I suspect, those of most people in the UK.

JP

I run 1x11 with xt shifter and mech on a hope cassette. I really like this set up but the hope cassette is about £150 rrp.

I built a budget winter 29er fully rigid bike with a front mech on xt 10 speed with 11 32 cassette.

As I ride a road bike I don't mind front mechs. I've not noticed a difference on a mtb between 1x10 and 1x11 (I did on a road bike)

I've found the 2x10 pretty good. No big jumps in gears. A granny when it gets tough. The rear cassette doesn't weigh 500g and 10 speed is cheap as chips.

It did make me think why I'd spent so much money for less.

Was a no brainier for me to upgrade to GX Eagle from SlX 11 speed. Cost me just over £100 after selling the old bits and getting the Eagle full set cheap through Halfords.

It was more the 10 speed cog for me and to a lesser extent the 50. I use both each ride I’d say and in the majority a 32 front ring keeps me in the middle of the cassett for most situations. 11 speed 11-42 always seemed a comprimise to me from 2x11, but 12 speed 10-50 properly replaced 2x 11 for me.

Shifting is better as well for me

11 – 46 covers all of my needs, and, I suspect, those of most people in the UK.

On my XC MTB it would, but my adventure bike, a rigid 29er, it spends time on roads and 32/11 top gear isn't enough so I'd want 34 or 36. But at the other end, if I'm winching up some big mountain climb at the end of a long day loaded up, 34/46 probably isn't enough. That bike would need 2x11 but 12sp with a 10-50 cassette might also work.

I'm trying to breathe more life into 11spd for this year with a garbaruk 10-48t cassette. You could do 11-46/48/50 on your current Shimano driver body and gain range and drop weight over your existing Shimano boat anchor.
Recieved mine last week but not managed to ride it nor even index it before going away but it sure looks nicely made!

I have had eagle gx on my last couple of winter bikes and its been much better than any SRAM experiences I've had previously, but I'm a Shimano guy so would be waiting for 12spd Shimano XT before buying any 12spd groupset not on an oem build.

I've just ditched my Shimano XT 11 speed for a GX full groupset.
Absolutely love it, really impressed with it build and shifting.
Bargain at £280 for full groupset

I absolutely love it shifts so slick 12 gears cover my range and has completely breathed new life into my riding - Just go for it if not happy just sell and change back, I have previously always been XT and this is my first Sram setup but really pleased cant see me going back.

Eagle GX cassette is pretty much the same weight as the 11-46 Shimano cassette (some reviews state it's actually slightly lighter).

GX Eagle Cassette is usually around £130. Even the 50t is steel though, so tends to last longer (in my experience).

Comparable 11-46 XT cassette is around £60, but if you regularly ride steep climbs, how long would you get out of that 46t alu cog before you'd need to replace the whole cassette?

I get that some people don't like the feel of Sram and vice versa. I like them both fine, but I prefer the feel of Sram shifters. Eagle GX is very well priced from a lot of retailers now, it'd be daft to spend similar on 11 speed in my opinion.

Both me and my missus haven't had any issues with rear mechs being vulnerable. No more than any other mech. We ride all sorts of terrain in all weathers and they have been flawless.

Like I said earlier though, I'd happily buy 11 speed for a new build if it was significantly cheaper than Eagle.

Obviously everyone's experiences will differ depending on setup and bike.

how long would you get out of that 46t alu cog before you’d need to replace the whole cassette?

Well that's bigger than the alloy chainrings that I never have had to replace ever.

Eagle GX is very well priced from a lot of retailers now, it’d be daft to spend similar on 11 speed in my opinion.

Have you seen the price of XT lately?

Much difference in performance between GX and NX and weight

Weight. Nx cassette is getting on for 700g iirc!

Not really
Gx casette is a bit neater/ lighter
Guarantee you would have no idea what you were riding

Do chainrings usually wear out faster than the biggest cog on a cassette (being aluminium)? I've no idea of the forces involved to be honest.

Just had a look at chain reaction at the XT groupset builder. Not bad really, managed to get it to £210 with a chainring.

Thing is, it's not much more expensive still to go GX Eagle (if cost is the issue). £225 minus the chain ring from Bikediscount.de. I suppose you'd have to factor in a freehub change though.

But yeah, people will always have their favourites and it'll be interesting to see the 12 speed Shimano stuff trickle down to Deore/XT level in the future. More competition only benefits us lot!

One of my last bikes did have an 11 speed NX cassette... nearly did my back in picking that up! 🙂

At least the NX cassette fits a shimano hub

Once Hope license the new freehub I’ll be getting 12 speed xtr.
I have heard that xtr rd and shifter work well with the sram gx and x01 cassette.

Not really
Gx casette is a bit neater/ lighter
Guarantee you would have no idea what you were riding

Disagree... STRONGLY!

GX is the pick of SRAM's range for performance per £... NX Eagle is impressive in that they can do it for the price, but for only a small saving over GX, it's a lot heavier, and it feels a lot cheaper (shifter especially) in use. For the small extra outlay, GX is just sooooo much nicer to use! It's the same weight as Shimano XT give or take a few grammes here or there, it's cheaper, has much more cassette range and the cassettes and chains last waaaaay longer...

X01 Eagle is wonderful, I've had a setup since it came out, cassette life is staggeringly good, chain life is way better than any 11spd I have found (typically was getting 400-500 miles to an 11spd chain before it stretched to 0.75%, am getting twice that from a 12spd!). To be fair though, it's bloody expensive, and in use it's only the shifter that you could actually tell any difference from the GX, but X01 is about 2.5x the price of GX at RRP!

Only reason not to go 12spd is if you're a real weight weenie, 11spd SRAM stuff is quite a bit lighter like for like than 12spd, if that matters...

At least the NX cassette fits a shimano hub

I'd rather spend the money to change freehub... The NX cassette really is a lump!

I'm still 10speed with one of these.

http://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/csms3

I've worn out plenty of chainrings - but not the 32T Hope that went on the same time as that cassette pictured last page. Badly hooked, yes, but still working, pictured below with its Works Components replacement for reference:
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4889/46007155465_dd40c7d22b_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4889/46007155465_dd40c7d22b_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2d6uGsn ]chainrings[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/21991139@N07/ ]tracksterman[/url], on Flickr

Re NX v Gx: the reality at present is that if you are buying separates then you will end up with a GX shifter and derailleur as there is no cost saving from going NX (probably means they are fairly similar too).
You then have a choice of cassette. Sure the GX is lighter and better, but NX also works fine and while some may instantly recognise the leg sapping effort involved in moving around with an additional 200g placed on the rear axle, I imagine many will be OK with it.

yeah I stayed 11spd due to weight and preferring Shimano shifters.

I recently bought a new Scott Scale that had full Sram 12spd (mix of GX and X0) but the cassette was GX and a lump, and I couldn't afford at the time to upgrade to the 1295/1299 cassette so I went back to 11 (XTR shifter, XT mech on a 1195 cassette)

I'm tempted by the XTR12 shifter on a Sram 1295/1299 cassette in the future though, maybe.

I'm really holding out for MTB eTap...

My new ride comes with 12s NX.

Thats coming off for 11s XG1175 10-42 with XT mech & shifter. Keeping the NX cranks though, to take a 28t superstar oval.

Saves 500g mostly off the rear wheel. I'm not a big fan of SRAM shifting nor massive cassettes tbh.

I’m really holding out for MTB eTap…

This. Then the mechanical stuff will be transferred to the bikes still with 11s

my new bike has 12s GX.

coming from 10spxt i feel like its a step back.

Well I don't see any 9spd regret threads.

Well I don’t see any 9spd regret threads.

No one can remember that far back.

And that's the M8000 jockey wheels off, ready for the new drivetrain.
[img] [/img]

Given that I've replaced the cassette, jockeys, chain and chainring for less than a hundred quid (and arguably made it more functional into the process), I'm struggling to see why someone in a similar situation would want to spend five times that. Not so much 12spd regrets as 12spd...why? It's not the same deal as changing, say, 3x9 to 1x11; the difference would be tiny.

I do get what a lot of you are saying from a cost perspective. I considered 12 speed for my new hardtail build, but I already had 11 speed X0 sat in my spares.

All my wheels are XD freehubs though, so realistically I can only go to 42t cassette without a freehub change. It's not like I "need" any more though, but it is nice when you reach for that last gear when you're hurting 🙂

The one thing I do prefer with Shimano is the jockey wheels not using bearings. Pain in the arse when they start seizing.

Why would it be 5 times more ? I bought a full GX Eagle Drivetrain (cassette, mech, shifter and chain) for £190 last month from Merlin. That compares well against the £100 above.
My XT M8000 jockeys do have bearings which only lasted 1 year and had to be upgraded to Hope...

Just bought the 12 speed sunrace setup as mentioned on other thread. Will report back once used for a bit.

No regrets going to GX Eagle here.

I didn't *need* 12 speed but I did want it.lol

As it happens I do use the 50T more than I thought I would. Ie. I'm even less fit than I thought I was! 😊

Why would it be 5 times more ?

First post, last page.

@postierich - this article http://www.bikepacking.com/gear/sram-eagle-review/ compares prices (US obviously) and weights of the three levels of Sram 12spd drivetrains.

@johnw1984 - chainring wear seems to depend on the manufacturer, Raceface wear pretty quick but Absolute Black are better, Hope aren't too bad. Not tried any others.

As @djflexure says - I've never noticed what cassette is on the bike when I'm riding it.

I’m trying to breathe more life into 11spd for this year with a garbaruk 10-48t cassette

@Backbear do update as to how the fitting and first ride goes, I'll be due a drivetrain refresh soon and this seemed to tick the boxes.

Hmm, those Garbaruk cassettes aren't as expensive as I remember. I'd be tempted to try one on the hardtail when it's time to change.

Where can you buy garabuk in the UK?

I thought they were about £200 for a cassette. I ordered an Eagle groupset (boost gxp) for £280 from CRC yesterday - they are £290 but I used the BC tenner- for me having a complete new set up for that cost is a no brainer. I'll probably sell the cranks though and buy a used carbon x0 one from eBay but pinch the boost ring that came with the set up.

with regards to the GX stuff and peoples suggestion that the jockey wheels are a weak link is there anything that can be done as preventative maintenance on them?

You can remove them and carefully prise seals- pack with marine grease. Be careful when you do this, they are directional and also the little washers are all different.

I bought some expensive ones from KA Engineering and bent them- well annoyed as they were £60!

Went back to the standard ones.

You can just chuck any old jockey wheels in there if you're that concerned.

I snapped one in my X01 mech with a rock getting jammed in the cage, I had an old X-0 9speed mech that was bent from my DH bike days. I just took one out of that 6 months ago, put it in & forgot about it.

Where can you buy garabuk in the UK?

Looking R2-Bike sell them in Euros, worked out just under £200 when converting and chuck in a chain its very close to Eagle GX price. I like it as the 11 speed SRAM mechs arent as big as the eagles ones and the 10-46 would give me the extra bailout gear which would be useful on long days out.

I have gone back and looked at them but they dont fit Hope pro4 hubs!

Why would it be 5 times more ?

First post, last page.

A bit confusing. You spent £100 with partial XT replacement when an entire GX Drivetrain minus the cranks is £190 brand new. I don't get how 12 speed is 5 times more. It's hardly more than 11 speed like for like and the cassette will last much longer than the XT cassette.

Regarding the jockey wheels,on top of cleaning/re greasing the bearings it's also very easy and cheap (under £2 a set) to replace them when they do wear too much or corrode/seize.

Bearing Replacement

Bearings

It really isn't confusing.

My 11 XT speed drivetrain is shagged. The OP's 11 speed XT drivetrain is shagged. In his first post he quoted £500 to 'upgrade' to his chosen level of 12 speed. I pointed out that I had already bought replacement parts for less than £100 (about £90), including a cassette that should also last a lot longer than an XT cassette. Even lowering the level of 12 speed 'upgrade' he's going to spend 2-3 times that (Merlin seems to be out of stock on most GX stuff).

The thread is about cost, benefit and regret. It's his money. He can do what he wants. Just pointing out options.

Good to see that you agree it's not £500 like for like but close to £200 to go to 12 speed, and that's with new everything, including mech and shifter (and jockey wheels of course). Just pointing out options.

Regarding the jockey wheels,on top of cleaning/re greasing the bearings it’s also very easy and cheap (under £2 a set) to replace them when they do wear too much or corrode/seize.

Bearing Replacement

Bearings

The article gives the size 6 x 19 x 6 but the ebay link is 6 x 22 x 7?

Just a heads up Planet X have SRAM GX Eagle mech for £55, trigger £21 and cassette £89 - plus there are a couple of cheaper cassette options if you have a Shimano hub (NX or Sunrace MZ90 which I rate). Add a chain and NW chainring and you've gone 12 speed for under 200 notes!

Oikeith - good catch on the bearings-these are the ones that I bought - 626 2rs NOT the 636 I linked to by mistake :
626 2rs Bearings

I’ve been running 12 speed for about 2 years now following the dawning that big events in big hills don’t work for me with 32 front and 40 or 42 back. So I went Eagle and am very happy with it.

I get a useful range which sees little walking.

Longevity wise I am not experiencing any issues at all and tend to run a couple of chains to the cassette and then retire it all before it’s completely broken.
Yes, it is a bit steep but it is good.
The only regret I have is trying XTR where i found the new 12 speed mech is a little delicate and will snap in two if you put a stick in it.

I’ve been eyeing up the gx eagle, but for the time being Running 11 speed on 3 bikes

2 on XTR shifter /Xt mech / kmc chains
And 11-46t xt cassette and 11-46 sunrace mx8 with a 34t oval and a 34t

And then x1 shifter / gx mech 11-46 sunrace / 32t

I prefer the feel of shimano shifters although the sram doesn’t miss a beat ,
The NX 11 speed felt cheap and bulky,
all cassettes will soon be sunrace, better range than shimano

Think I’ll go XT 12 speed eventually,
So I can run a 36t chainring for the extra pedal speed.

Presently I’m not seeing an advantage to the 12 speed cost/benefit

Ps 2 mates have regretted 12s sram bother have shattered derailleurs (although both replaces under warranty) mainly riding offpiste catching heather or bits of wood

Looks like those waiting for a full 12 speed Shimano group at a reasonable price might be in for a bit of a wait...

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimanos-new-xtr-drivetrain-still-isnt-available.html