You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Is it just me or is 12just a bit crap.
I've done 2 wet-ish rides and it doesn't shift properly. When it does shift it sits in gear nice but I have to overshift to shift back. It's not cable stretch as it sits in gear nice. It just doesn't like mud. Full length outer btw.
My 10sp I just fit and forget until I wear the cassette out or smash it to bits!
Brand new drivetrain, no crashes (on the mech side anyway! Haha
It's SRAM so i fully expected it to be crap, but not *this* crap! I think the tolerances just don't work off-road in the mud.
Can you get 10sp SRAM freehub compatible cassettes?
It's you.
I'm happy with mine, don't get any problems like that.
Years on 12 speed SRAM now. Absolutely faultless
It's you.
Had no issues with XX1 Eagle shifter and mech with GX cassette and chain for 16 months now.
Shifter and mech bought second hand off here. No way I'd pay retail for them.
Also got an E13 kit to change 11 speed SRAM shifter to 12 speed. That worked, too.
Did you use the proper tool to set the derailleur?
I've found sram 12 speed better than shimano.
You do need to set it up correctly including with the b screw adjustemt tool. The new tool included with the 520% range is better than previous.
My 12 speed SLX sounds a bit gritty in mud, but Sram and Shimano have all been great with shifting.
Just sounds like it's not set up/installed properly.
If its lower than Gx level then yeah the mechs are probably not fit for purpose.
Gx and above are fine if a little fragile and vulnerable.
I'm finding this with 1x 11spd on an 11-40 cassette.
I thought it was set up correctly because until now I've always found drivetrains really simple to set up and keep set up, but 11spd (and I assume 12spd) with big cassettes especially just seem to need a bit more finesse.
I eventually got mine working by just tweaking things in increments when out riding, needed more B-Tension that I thought it would.
Is it just me or is
129 just a bit crap.
8 speed was the pinnacle. All downhill since then.
Yup, 12 speed SRAM and Shimano are a PITA in muddy conditions and require too much fettling. The tolerances are tight and the slightest tap on the mech hanger will screw up shifting. They are also useless on ebikes due to the 10t cog. 11 speed and 10 speed were a lot less hassle.
Yes can agree to a degree. Generally happy but having a slight issue on two bikes with 12spd:
Shimano SLX/XT derailleur
Sunrace cassette
New cables and outers
checked cassette lockring
hangers look straight
Shifting all adjusted and works well in the stand but out on rides in the middle of the cassette I sometimes get no shift down or up 1 click and have to click a second time then go back. Just happens in those middle couple of gears.
My 10sp I just fit and forget until I wear the cassette out or smash it to bits!
10 speed absolutely is easier to set up, is more tolerant of poor set up, and also more tolerant of abuse. 12 speed on OEM builds tends to work as well, if not better, than anything… 12 speed home mechanic builds are more hit and miss.
[ personal opinion not fact ]
8 speed was the pinnacle. All downhill since then
Nah, DH is 7 speed.
If its sram, you need a XO1 rear mech to get something that lasts.
I've never been a mech breaker but I went through two GX mechs in 6 months when I went 12 speed in 2018. XO1 has bee fine since.
At least 2 others who I ride with have had the same issue.
12 speed needs more careful setup than 10. The plastic tool is great for SRAM but I think Shimano have some markings on the mech itself to help get B tension right.
How do you set them up?
Like I said it sits on the gear right (no clicking/skipping) when it gets in the gear so I guess the mech/cog lines up correctly.
That's all the setup I'd normally do with a 10sp setup?
It's a brand new bike setup by a shop. 2 rides old.
It is muddy. But then it will be for the next 6months!
I wouldn't normally clean my bike after 2 rides. It's a waste of time and they've never needed that kind of maintenance. I've even dug out my chain cleaning device (used twice in 10yrs! Lol) to see if that may help.
It is muddy. But then it will be for the next 6months!
Singlespeed for the muddy months!
DrP
"Is it just me or is 12just a bit crap.
I’ve done 2 wet-ish rides and it doesn’t shift properly. When it does shift it sits in gear nice but I have to overshift to shift back. It’s not cable stretch as it sits in gear nice. It just doesn’t like mud. Full length outer btw.
My 10sp I just fit and forget until I wear the cassette out or smash it to bits!"
I concur. I hardly did any cleaning or maintenance with my Shimano 10 speed stuff, it just worked. GX Eagle is far less tolerant of use in nasty conditions.
-11 speed Sram was good, shimano was a bit meh to be honest.
-12 speed sram is garbage, the mechs lose their clutchyness inside of 6 months, less if you are
really unlucky.
-12 speed shimano is a big step on from their 11 speed and blows sram out of the water. Crisp shifting, proper adjustable clutch, bombpoof. Microspline is slightly annoying if you have lots of xd drivers.
I 've run 12 speed Sram for 18 months now (shimano 11 speed before), and thankfully it has been flawless. Not sure if the fact its not mechanical plays any part (AXS X01 setup)
Pretty much 11 months of constant mud up here in Scotland and the SRAM eagle 12 speed is faultless. Never fails to shift smoothly and cleanly and needs zero adjustment ever
Two years on Sram Eagle GX all I've had to do in that time is adjust the b gap screw once. I've still got the same chain and cassette after 2000 miles and it's all still good.
Agree so far - my XT 12 speed is perfect until it gets a bit wet and gritty / muddy then it’s either noisy or trying to skip (maybe a bit of both). Chain length done using the Shimano manual method and the same with the b screw adjustment using the mark on the jockey wheel cage. Apart from the chainring it’s all Shimano 12 speed stuff (chainring has hg12 compatible tooth profile).
Bent mech hanger (usually the culprit)
Poorly routed cables
Cable tension needs adjusting
In highest gear (smallest rear sprocket), mech rests on the cable tension instead of the limit screw. [the Park Tool web page on adjusting rear mechs has a great description of why this can cause a lot of issues]
B screw not adjusted properly
Cable inner / outer / both need replacing.
Clutch friction needs adjusting
Mech needs cleaning / lubing
Frame out of manufacturing tolerance (very rare)
Could be any one or a combination of the above.
Chain length done using the Shimano manual method and the same with the b screw adjustment using the mark on the jockey wheel cage.
What mark on jockey wheel cage? Wonder if there's a GRX equivalent, manual doesn't mention anything though.
I might go and check chain length, my suspicion was that it was too long by a link...
7 months and 1600 miles on Deore 12 speed.
The mud killed the chain pretty quickly as soon as the weather got bad. Shifting was noisy, but still functional.
Before that, it was solid.
New XT chain gone on this week and I'll see how it goes this weekend.
It's odd people are suggesting maintenance/replacing when I've said its brand new, 2 rides old, shop setup😂
Still I'll give it a Zzap with a hose, clean it all, and see if its just crap in the mech or just crap in general.
Might be b screw I suppose. I'll see if I can get the mech closer to the cassette.
shop setup😂
Having seen forks on backwards on display stands and things over the years I'd like that to mean more than I know it does.
It’s odd people are suggesting maintenance/replacing when I’ve said its brand new, 2 rides old, shop setup😂
As above. This means nothing.
Two new bike I bought from reputable shops came with bent mech hangers which the said reputable shops didn't pick up on during assembly.
Once I set up my new bike's mech properly at home with the Shimano instructions (unlike the bloody useless shop it came from) and perfected the hanger alignment my 12 speed xtr has been great.
As it came from the shop it was woeful.
On XT and SLX 12 speed and the new style Deore 11 speed mech there’s a mark on the back side of the mech above the top jockey wheel. On the XT / SLX it says ‘51T’ next to it. You’re supposed to adjust the b screw until the tip of the big tooth cog line up with it.
With chain sizing it’s not plus 2 links or anything quite like that - there are different sizing based on ht or fs and how the chain sits when you route round big cog / chainring but not through the mech. Done 3 now. Cant say I love these new style Shimano mechs - 11 speed Sram was far less sensitive to the b screw setup.
I've got 12sp SLX on my new 29er fs. Anybody had it not shifting down from the biggest sprocket when the clutch is engaged? Thought it was the cable but took the cable off and it does it without.
Place where I had the bike said it needs a new clutch mechanism but the bike was new in July. They've sent me a new clutch innards which I'll try fitting tomorrow and see how that goes.
Still on old 9 speed XT, however its just aboot ****ed. I'm looking at 9 speed Box Components as a replacement, anyone used their drivetrain yet for comparison?
No problems with my GX or X01 setups, my previous X01 cassette was still going at 2000+ miles and accepted a new-ish chain too! The X01 shifter is was better than GX, but found GX mechs more than enough and no dodgy clutches for me.
Both Sram and Shimano dropped the ball with 11-speed. Sram felt cheap, plasticky and nasty no matter if you had NX or XX1 and Shimano lost that light, smooth feeling so it just felt like the worst of both worlds. I did love my 10-speed Saint shifter teamed with an XT clutch mech and XT cassette with Hope T-Rex though, that was great setup but a bit short of range these days!
It’s odd people are suggesting maintenance/replacing when I’ve said its brand new, 2 rides old, shop setup😂
Its odd that you think this means it cant be anything else other than 12 speed simply being shit.
Its more likely that the shop didn't do a great job setting it up. From your posts it sounds like you dont know how to look after you own bikes or just choose not to care for them properly and rely on shops to do it.
Maybe you should try look at some very simply and easy to follow tutorials on youtube instead of making a pointless thread with a ridiculous title.
Best of luck.
No issues here in the last few years, with a full GX setup, XTR and hybrid AXS/XTR cassette/Praxis chainring/KMC setup.
The GX feels a bit clunky but shifts fine, the full XTR was an absolute dream and the only weak point on the mish mash setup i now run is the worn Praxis ring picking up the chain on the bottom when it’s really mucky. It is 2 years old and not technically a 12 speed ring though. Have an Eagle ring on the way tnsort that out.
Agree so far – my XT 12 speed is perfect until it gets a bit wet and gritty / muddy then it’s either noisy or trying to skip (maybe a bit of both)
Top tip: Fit a SRAM chain in the winter. You're welcome 🙂
Top tip: Fit a SRAM chain in the winter. You’re welcome
That’s interesting - I’ve always run Sram chains / drivetrains on modern mtb’s - this is the first Shimano one in ages. I believed a lot of stuff online that suggested for the best shifting on new 12 speed you needed a Shimano chain. Hence having one on my setup.
Tempted to pick up an oil slick Sram chain in that case as they look nice and bling!
Just because a shop set it up doesn't mean it correctly done but my factory built bikes needed a bit of a tweak.
I've been running full 12pd X01 for over 2 years now and it all runs smooth,only difference I have found is the adjustments are very fine compared to 10/11 spd Shimano/Sram which you could be less spot on with.
I believed a lot of stuff online that suggested for the best shifting on new 12 speed you needed a Shimano chain.
This is indeed true, unless its muddy. The SRAM chain affords way more room so clears mud better and the shifting isn't far off the shimano shift, and much better if the chain is filthy. Admittedly Im only a few rides into this experiment so take it with a pinch of salt, but the difference from ride 1 was notable.
I thought my sram xx1 was crap. Just couldn't get it to index right in the larger sprockets. Sometimes the mech would have a spasm and fling the chain to the middle of the cassette. Just couldn't work it out. Went on for months. Then, one day when I took the chain off to clean it I spun the cranks to check the BB and noticed the chainring was bent. Straightened it and VOILA! Perfect shifting. 🙄
Yep I found sram x01 to be crap in really muddy conditions, would start off fine but the muddier it got it would then clog up and not shift at all. I had a few rides like that, would work perfect in nice conditions but as soon as mud got involved it was utter tosh. I swapped to AXS and has been flawless since, no cables to get gunked up.
I did love my 10-speed Saint shifter
Best shifter ever. One day I won’t be able to say that, hopefully…
Box Components as a replacement, anyone used their drivetrain yet for comparison
Can you remove the wheel on the 9 speed stuff?
Always prefer 11 speed, seems to be the one that worked the best, 12 speed was just a little too many without changing the width of the cogs, not quite sure why they didn't push wider ranges on 11, rather than going full in for 12 speed
@dangeorbrain, I assume so, any reason why it wouldn't?
My 9sp = rubbish at the moment but because I've been too lazy to fettle it properly.
I have gone from 3 x 9 to NX 1 x 12 for 6 months in Rossendale.
Consistently 3 rides a week with the last 2 months as muddy as you like.
My cleaning regime of the whole drive train gets done after each ride including a deep chain clean
Though not a scientific study I can reflect it has not skipped a beat, I’m happy with it and I’m not easily pleased
What a pain in the arse. I can't believe we are here. When is 13 speed coming? MTB lagging behind the campag guys!
Fair enough I'll have play and see if I can get it to work. Not what you expect brand new stuff to do. Normally you get that lovely 'its all new and running super smooth' feeling for more than 2 rides when you get new gears in my experience.
When I built all my other bikes I've ever had I just set it up to index and off we go.
Maybe I was hoping for too much? I love that clean new drivetrain feeling.
The bikes is still ace so thats all good. I'll go and ride some wet muddy slidy trails to cheer myself up.
I’ve just ordered a Sram 12 speed chain to test the theory the mud flows through it better. If nothing else the oil slick colour should look savage.
I assume so, any reason why it wouldn’t?
@inbred853 you couldn't on their 11speed kit.
Given the cost of their nine speed stuff is as much or more than decent 10 11 or even 12 speed I'll be honest it makes no sense to me.
Given the cost of their nine speed stuff is as much or more than decent 10 11 or even 12 speed I’ll be honest it makes no sense to me.
This. Just buy 11 speed and have done with it. Sram GX with a Sunrace 10-46 or Shimano SLX with a Sunrace 11-46.
Never had a problem tbh, I was pretty early to the GX 12 speed party and it's been pain free and super reliable even in horrible conditions. At least as good as the 11 speed that it replaced and better than the 10 speed 1x setups I used.
(I'm still using all of those on various bikes so that's a day to day comparison; as much as I love the 10 speed Saint and my fancy X01 11 speed, the GX is the workhorse and it deals with the worst conditions)
Never had an issue with 12sp stuff regardless of the conditions, but they are significantly more sensitive to indifferent set-up than anything else I've used in the past. My only advice would be check the B setting clearance, it makes a heck of difference to how well it shifts.
@dangeourbrain, can't find any ref on Google or YouTube reviews of Box not being able to be removed from frame due to derailleur, would be a show stopper for me, have you got any links/ refs to this?
I've sent a message to Box for clarification, I'll post if I get a reply.
I'd rather not have 10/11/12 speed as I'm happy with 9, just want a bigger gear range tbh. As for cost, I'm not looking at top end drive trains.
My Big Dog came with GX shifting and a SX/NX cassette. It came with the cable adjustment several turns too tight but once I'd slackened it off properly [took several goes] it's been perfect. I ride 5/6 days a week and have washed the mud off once.
Isn’t someone doing 9 speed wide range now? So better set up / reliability, same range but only compromised in steps between gears. Sounded a good approach rather than +1 gear per year
The Box One derailleur features the familiar limit and B-tension screws for simple set-up, but I did encounter a clearance issue between the upper cage and the bulky Horst Link pivot on the Whyte T-130. This wasn’t a problem with the 11T cog on the Shimano cassette, but it was with the 10T cog on the SRAM cassette where the cage fouled on the frame before it could reach the final gear.
Box Components sent out a longer B-tension screw to reduce the frame interference issue.
A longer B-tension screw helped to achieve the necessary clearance, but the decreased chain wrap left gear changes feeling a little sluggish as a result. However, hardtails and other rear suspension designs may not have this problem in the first place.There were clearance issues with our pre-production derailleur and the bulky horst link pivot on the T-130.
Another issue I discovered was rear wheel removal. Because the mech doesn’t rotate far back enough on the hanger, you’re left with minimal room to release the cassette from the dropouts. There’s no way of turning the CamClutch off like you can with a Shimano derailleur, so the process is a whole lot harder than it needs to be. As such, I had to unbolt the derailleur to install or remove the rear wheel, which is terribly annoying. Again, this may be a non-issue for other frames.
It wasn't a non issue with other frames.
@dangeourbrain, cheers, so specific to that frame it seems. I should be fine as only have a hard tail. Might give the Prime 2 or 3 a try, Prime 1 a bit to expensive , been though the cassette is a thing of much lovelyness.
Looks like Box have updated thier gear since 4 years ago as well.
Sounded a good approach rather than +1 gear per year
Seems to be disadvantages without benefit - the gaps would be really annoying, the shifting would be rubbish. I don't think there'll be an ever increasing number of gears because 12 is just about right.
I don’t think I’d buy Box components - what’s the obsession with 9 speed? Nothing wrong with 10 or 11 speed.
Particularly 11 speed you get a good range, it’s not as finicky as 12 speed, and it’s not even expensive. If you picked up the new Deore 11 speed and a Sunrace Cassette it’s not expensive and works well enough (I fitted it onto a budget build for my nephew recently). Fits on a standard hg freehub and you can get the wheel out with no issue. Also probably lighter than the box stuff unless you buy the fanciest one - but then that’s on a level with quite fancy Shimano or Sram stuff.
Must be your set up.
12 speed is the way forward - can be heavy tho if entry level spec
@joebristol, no obsession, just fancy trying something different from the two S's. Prime 9, same gear range as 10/11/12 speed.
@dangeourbrain, hopefully just affects the 11 speed/full sus setup then, should be 'reet with my hardtail.
I still don’t get it - the box 3 groupset (9 speed) looks to be about £180 for mech / cassette / chain / shifter.
For a squeak over £200 you could get a deore 11-51 cassette (11 speed), Deore 11 speed mech, deore shifter, deore cranks and chainring and a Sram pc-1110 chain.
You’d have closer stacked gears, a groupset you know will just work (and you can get the wheel out with no dramas) and it’ll most likely shift nicer. Not sure which option is heavier.
I did love my 10-speed Saint shifter
Best shifter ever. One day I won’t be able to say that, hopefully…
The XTR 12spd shifter isn't far off the saint, I do find the shift a little bit heavier though.
I think I just got two rides out of my 11-40 GRX setup and the shifting is all to cock again.
Same problem every time, a bit slow shifting up the block, but then jumps second biggest cog on to top cog. Then very reluctant to shift off top cog again.
Will replace cables, check derailleur hanger (again...) then think I'm going back to 2x with a smaller cassette. I think big cassettes just ask too much of a rear mech for reliably smooth shifting. My utterly neglected 105 11-28 road setup doesn't need ANY attention...
An 11-40 cassette in 11 speed should be fine. Never had an issues running 10-42 cassettes with 11 speed GX. Setup and forget really - hardly ever needs any tweaking of cable tension. So should should be fine with 11-40 as long as the mech is designed to cover that range.
13thfloormonk
Full MemberI think I just got two rides out of my 11-40 GRX setup and the shifting is all to cock again.
Same problem every time, a bit slow shifting up the block, but then jumps second biggest cog on to top cog. Then very reluctant to shift off top cog again.
Definitely an outright fault rather than an issue with 1x12 though... I mean, it's not like 11-40 is even especially big.
Yeah, shouldn't have posted in anger (well, mild frustration), am sure this is my fault somehow, but I maintain that both 1xbig cassette setups I've had (SRAM then Shimano) have been significantly more fickle than anything I've run previously.
Still, 2m of fresh outer purchased and ready to fit, another evening tweaking GRX beckons... 🙄
Got 12sp sram on 2 bikes. Runs smooth on both. You do have to make sure the gap between jockey wheel and casette is spot on, but easily done with the right tool. Two thumbs up from me.
@joebristol, not for you to get it, personal preference and all that, I might try the eight speed 11-42 version now you've mentioned Deore🤔
Joking aside, all I need is a shifter, derailleur and cassette, happy with my Jones'd XTR 960 cranks and 32t oval ring. Will buy a used 9 Speed Shimano XT derailleur off of the Bay to suffice at the mo, used the former to replace my mates FUBAR'd one while I was in summer single speed mode.
I'll post up a report of my Box experience once I buy and install it, probably early next year.
13thfloormonk
Full MemberYeah, shouldn’t have posted in anger (well, mild frustration), am sure this is my fault somehow, but I maintain that both 1xbig cassette setups I’ve had (SRAM then Shimano) have been significantly more fickle than anything I’ve run previously.
Sorry, I didn't mean it's your fault! I meant that whatever the fault is isn't a 1x12 or wide-range fault, it's some generic old-school shifting fault same as always. Maybe made a little worse by putting 12 cogs in only a little bit more space than 11 but it actually comes down to only .2mm on a SRAM cassette as they're a little wider.
Well, I had a play and got it a bit better.
it was much drier today though (still gopping! So dead good fun) so im still not totally convinced. I'll try it in the rain n proper slop again soon no doubt!
It just seems a bit fickle for something you thrash through crap for 7 months of the year?
My XT 12 spd has been bang on for over a year now. Not touched it.
Just to add my penny's worth to an already crowded thread.
I swapped from my stock 2x9 Shimano acera to a 1x12 SRAM eagle gx in July and I love it. Shifting is satisfyingly crisp and precise across the range whereas the Shimano was slow and clunky and I could never get perfect indexing no matter how I adjusted it. The eagle did take a bit of care with installation and setting up, particularly the b gap, but once you've nailed that it's been fit and forget.
Not really a fair comparison given the entry level nature of acera vs GX eagle and the fact I've only been using the SRAM for 4 months, but it really does put a smile on my face when out riding.
As others have said though, it's not great in thick mud and mine has gummed up a couple of times this winter with the deep claggy clay and chalk mud we have locally (jockey wheels in particular). However I'd be surprised if many drive trains would come out of that unscathed.
GX Eagle early adopter here. Set up is a little more finiky, and its also slightly more intolerant of bent mechs and derailiers.
X-sync 2 chainrings are brilliant and although the cassettes are super spendy they do seem to last.
I'm less impressed with GX chains, which repeatedly split around the pins, and the rear mechs which eat Jockey wheel bearings way before the teeth wear out, and the main B-pivots wear and go baggy, resulting to too much waggle at the mech hanger for reliable shifting.