[Closed] 12 speed for everyone!

"This also opens the door nicely for GX Eagle AXS, a year ago GX Eagle was the ‘low end’ Eagle groupset,"

I think they struggled a bit with this positioning- GX is pretty much on par with XT, but because it was the bottom of the SRAM range this wasn't all that obvious and people kept saying "why is GX so much more expensive than Deore" and suchlike. And likewise comparing the top end, XXX101 or whatever it may be now, with XTR when it was more like XTRRR.

… unless price is going to drop dramatically I see no point.

Wiggle got NX Eagle discounted into 63-something quid now. SX Eagle is £70.40 but only if you have Platinum Wiggle Discount. Otherwise it is 80 smackers… GX Eagle would be 12 quid dearer with discount or 13 without.

Maybe the whole groupset is more competitive, but you need to be a fanboy of All-Sram to swallow it in one go. When it is completely non-obligatory. With your perfectly functional crank/bottom bracket from yesteryear…

Maybe shifting set only? Mech/cassette/chain/trigger.

Cheers!
I.

It's only been (not) released, wait for the prices to settle in and you'll probably be able to pick up a rear mech for £40. It might only be £20 less, but for OEM purposes that means bike could have eagle 12 speed at the same cost at SLX, which comes on most £1000-£1500 bikes at the moment.

Comparing like for like, i.e. rrp to rrp, it's £106 vs £80, exactly 25% cheaper than NX eagle.

Give it a few weeks and the rear mech will be £40, shifter £15-£20, crankset £60 I reckon.

If one thing, it'll make carrying a spare eagle rear mech much, much cheaper!

If one thing, it’ll make carrying a spare eagle rear mech much, much cheaper!

This, like the idea of having a spare mech for events. Xo1 makes it and expensive option to just sit in a box

 

Just seen the cassette weight on the bird website for their new anniversary bikes...

730g! 😮

That's a wee beastie.

Why don’t shimano just catch up already?!
I would like 12 speed but don’t like sram shifting. A mid range shimano 12 speed would suit me perfectly. Being fussy now but a slightly closer spread of gears at top would be nice, 42t to 50t is quite a big jump!

Why don’t shimano just catch up already?!

If I was Shimano I'd be crying "please make it stop!"

No one actually wants a 730g 12s cassette other than OEM marketing managers who have the results of a focus group telling them that 12s has more appeal than keeping bikes <30lb anymore.

I've not had SRAM since the 10s days when I wrote off 3 mechs in a matter of weeks and went back ton shimano (and still have that first zee mech).

I am perfectly happy with my 11 speed to be fair, with a 11-46 cassette I’m not missing out and climb all the stuff my mates with 12 speed climb.
Probably not a happy week in the shimano office!

True no-one wants a 730g cassette, but if you had to take the hit you'd do it on the cassette. Its the one of the first things you'll need to replace, and with compatible versions from 568g at less than £65 delivered you're not going to find it a bitter pill to swallow.

Would be intrigued to know if shimano have actually lost out to SRAM. I know we like to think we're the center of the universe but SLX/GX and above really are quite niche markets in terms of actually selling bikes. You probably see 50 £500 carrera's with Alivo/Deore being wheelie'd to school for every bike with NX.

I'd not object to 12s on any sort of principle, despite my bikes being almost exclusively singlespeeds, but I'd rather have 10s and a 350g cassette than add almost a lb to the rear axle.

Leaves me cold. Still on 10 and 9 speed on my main bikes, and still waiting for Microshift to get Advent into the UK so I can go back to 9 speed on both. On my 10 speed I shift two cogs at a time habitually anyway, so if I thought I could get a 5 speed 11-40/42 setup working without ridiculous amounts of bodging I probably would.

I accept I'm probably in the minority though.

I accept I’m probably in the minority though.

On this forum, yes. However I'm pretty sure 99% of "mountain bikers" would be perfectly happy with that too.

no interest in 12 speed. I've got a 11-50t 11speed one a shimano hub. That cassette is already stupidly heavy but 730g holly shit.

True no-one wants a 730g cassette, but if you had to take the hit you’d do it on the cassette. Its the one of the first things you’ll need to replace, and with compatible versions from 568g at less than £65 delivered you’re not going to find it a bitter pill to swallow.

True, but does anyone really need a 500% gear range? That's effectively what we had with 3x9 IIRC? And I could never used the bottom or top of the range back then. Not meaningfully anyway.

I think the trick was missed not to offer something like 10-36 or 10-38 11s which could have been the same weight as 11-36 10s cassettes with all the new manufacturing processes. Kinda waiting to see what comes out for road bikes as it could be a much better option for anyone who doesn't need to ride up Lakeland passes every weekend.

Strange how this has come out the same week Shimano has launched its GRX gravel groupset, rather spoiling the Shimano press wash out!

(Still running 9speed SRAM drivetrains on my bikes)

but does anyone really need a 500% gear range? That’s effectively what we had with 3×9 IIRC?

you recall incorrectly...

standard 3x9 with 22-32-44 chainrings and 11-32 up back was 581% (and 11-34 would be even wider range)

1x11 was effectively like binning the big ring (so you lose all those ratios, by definition), although SRAM compromised by squeezing in an 10t sprocket to get a bit of that back. and bigger, heavier, cassette gave back most of what the granny ring had (but not quite).

I used all 581% of that range, but losing the very top ratio was an acceptable compromise. on my 1x11, I do keep going to change up only to find there's no more gears, but that will depend on what and where you ride.

when there's a 9-56 cassette, then we're talking.  we're getting there. waiting for 1x14 shimano.

when there’s a 9-56 cassette, then we’re talking. we’re getting there. waiting for 1×14 shimano.

Remember those mad buell motorbikes from around 2000 with rim mounted brake tracks? How long before we abandon hub mounted cassettes.

keithb

Subscriber
Strange how this has come out the same week Shimano has launched its GRX gravel groupset, rather spoiling the Shimano press wash out!

(Still running 9speed SRAM drivetrains on my bikes)

Hence the "soft launch" I guess. GRX has been posted up all over the place with lots of excited comments. SRAM trying to claw back some interest?

At that weight for a cassette maybe it's time to dust off the alfine drivetrain again

I have read somewhere that shimano have patents on a 14 speed set up

people kept saying “why is GX so much more expensive than Deore”

Did they?

I think most people gauge relative component levels by the price of bike they come on, rather than the individual parts' RRP (or price on CRC) these days.

GX possibly slightly above XT on that regard.

Anyway, **** Sram SX, where's 12-speed XT?

I have read somewhere that shimano have patents on a 14 speed set up

yup, that's why I mentioned 1x14.

patent was filed so long ago that I think it expires later this year (at least the US one).  some of the technology in that filing is already used in 11sp MTB, where the inner sprocket/s is/are dished inwards. some of it probably isn't, eg the spacings between sprockets being less than the thickness of the sprocket. I don't think Eagle12 nor XTR12 get anywhere near that? and the chain would be pretty unique (prolly another patent?).

Sram are more than welcome to pay a licence fee and use it for Albatross 13. That's what patents are for. Not to prevent people doing stuff, but to make that technology available. And with the dimensions from that 1999 patent, there could be Boost++, allowing the spoke flanges to be even wider than boost but cassettes fitting an even narrower freehub width 🙂

More than happy with my 3x9, 2x9 and 2x7 bikes... just could do with an overdrive button for the 1x11 bike.

I've recently gone to modern XT and I'm blown away by now nice it is for how little money. There seem to be reliability questions over Eagle, so it doesn't really appeal. This new setup is more expensive, and the cassettes are heavy. It doesn't seem to make sense over XT 11-46.

Do we really need 500% range? Well, I'm happy with my 418% on my FS MTB because it's used on steep local technical trails and the only road is to and from the woods. It does spin out on the road descents but I don't care. The rigid 29er though, that's more of an adventure bike so it has to cover lots of ground including road, possibly loaded. The off-road climbs can still be as steep, and I might be on the end of a long day; but I might also be doing 15 miles of road to get out to some exploratory loop. So that bike could really do with more range than Shimano 1x11 offers.

Godamn it I'm only just about to go 1*11. I'm probably about to make 29ers obsolete too.

Leaves me cold. Still on 10 and 9 speed on my main bikes, and still waiting for Microshift to get Advent into the UK so I can go back to 9 speed on both. On my 10 speed I shift two cogs at a time habitually anyway, so if I thought I could get a 5 speed 11-40/42 setup working without ridiculous amounts of bodging I probably would.

I accept I’m probably in the minority though.

Me too, and that Microshift gubbins looks good. I spend most of my time whiffling between 7th (2:1, my singlespeed gear) and 8th (overdrive!) and just dump a load of gears when my legs run out on steep hills. I prefer to stand up and stamp/honk than sit and spin so the other gears are really only there to help the chain up/down to the gears I actually use.

Are SRAM a big player in anything other than high end mountain bikes. As said above all the hslfords and decathlon stuff is shimano or microshift. Emtbs are shimano or bosch, are sram big in the road bike seen?

Are SRAM a big player in anything other than high end mountain bikes. As said above all the hslfords and decathlon stuff is shimano or microshift. Emtbs are shimano or bosch, are sram big in the road bike seen?

Nah, not really. There was a blip a while ago when seemed they were on a lot of bikes, but they seem as rare as (if not rarer) than Campagnolo equiped pro teams. Once you get up to the heady heights of 'dentist' bikes then the wireless eTap stuff gets a look in but 105/Ultegra (and some in respects Dura Ace) rule the roost.

They do a lot of CX/Gravel stuff mainly for the 1x appeal (hence the Shimano gravel response).

I am perfectly happy with my 32t by 11-46t SLX setup, I would even be happy with a 10s 11-46t tbh. Also the NX and now the SX Eagle is supposedly for cheaper bikes. Before NX Eagle you could find Hardtails under £1500 with GX, now there are even FS bikes on the £3k range which get NX Eagle, this is absurd. That's the reason I don't like the SX and NX Eagle, because bike manufacturers will try sell them more expensive using the 12s as a unique feature. I would like for Shimano to make 12s midrange (slx, XT) sets, so that SRAM lowers the price of their current 12s line

I'm sitting out on X01 11 sp with GX cassettes until a bike brings 12sp my way.

Drive train choices are very much personal, but from a purely technical standpoint Shimano have been on the back foot for nearly ten years now, since 2x10 launched. All they needed to do was drop that 'model clock' and drop XT, SLX and Deore all in the same year for 11 and they might have been in a better position now.

As it is, they've not quite launched 12sp XTR after inventing their own new FH (twice); after discovering they were time-poor dropped the bits of the XTR launch that the US market particularly wanted (the Scylence FH and the SRAM equalling 10T top 11sp close ratio cassette) and seem determined to equal SRAM/Avid for brake reliability instead. I hope they sort it out, it's never healthy having one company dominating the tech development.

Looking at it the other way around SRAM shot itself in the foot with gx. Its reasonably priced and reasonably light. So it gets specified on a lot of ranges and the differentiation is now in frame material and suspension because it's cheaper to get a better fork than X01 etc.

No bad thing, I've always spent money on the best fork I could justify, custom tuned shock etc and fitted whatever drive chain was in my parts bin. Any gain in drive chain performance is realistically very small compared to 5 minutes more in the gym doing a few squats.

I've never had a bike with SRAM drivetrain, in fact come to think of it, I've never even ridden one, not because of any antipathy towards SRAM but my bikes have come with Shimano and in ten years I've need to replace just one rear derailleur. I did consider it when I built up my fat bike but I've no need for such a wide range of gears on that, I'd sooner have a close ratio 10/11/12spd cassette than a wide range one.

My Solaris is fine with 11-42T (382% range) for mult-day bikepacking duties so Eagle's 10-50T is somewhat overkill for me. No doubt if I fitted it to a bike then it would be the best thing since sliced bread 😉

From what I've read, the "reliability" issues with Eagle mostly arise due to either incorrect setup or some form of hanger misalignment. There's the SRAM jockey wheel problem as well but that seems to have been fixed.

If the last few years of drivetrain faff have taught me anything, it's that what people are probably more bothered about is gearing range rather than having moar clicks...

And by "Range" I mean the 'right' range to suit their needs rather than having a massive breadth of gearing.

Most 1x MTBs seem to be settling on something like 450-520% of overall range ideally topping out with something like an 18" gear and a bottom end somewhere between 80-95 inches depending on rider strength and/or ego... Which isn't a million miles away from the 2x9 drivetrains available at the turn of the century.

Road bike drivetrains are similarly offering about 28-120 inches (+/- a couple of inches) and have done for a while.

There's a bio-mechanical sweet spot for pedalling humans, both of the big 'S's know this and have been offering drivetrains in about those ranges for road and MTB for some time, more click just forces them to do the maths a little differently so you think you're getting something "new" otherwise why would you buy it?

But yeah, you have to ask why would anyone trying to balance weight and budget not consider the "old" technology of 1x10 or 1x11 given the latest 12 clickers ain't really all that different...

@cookeaa - pretty much that. (err, you've got top and bottom the wrong way round BTW) Sure with any "range" there'll be the odd occasion where what you have isn't appropriate but then saying that your setup is no good is a case of the tail wagging the dog. I'm not bothered if I spin out for one or even five minutes per ride, over the course of a five hour or longer ride it's nothing, I might as well chill and coast along for a bit.

Where the properly low gear ratios do make sense is on extremely long low gradient climbs, we don't really get them in this country but there's plenty about in the States, often at altitude. By long I mean ten miles or more. I did the HT550 with a gear range of 23" - 85" and only ran out at the bottom end once, at the end of the fourth day on a forest/estate track in Torridon.

Reminds me of ..

Which isn’t a million miles away from the 2×9 drivetrains available at the turn of the century.

True, but without decent 1x systems all those LT 29ers wouldn't have been possible and also freeing up the space in the frame where the front mech used to be , so the other thing to consider  is what moves and where, rather than how wide the spread is.

that we've almost got back to a decent 3x9 spread with just a rear mech, and it's reliable, and it doesn't weight a shit metric tonne and you get better suspension and you get a lighter, stronger frame, and less mechanical shit to worry about...these are all pluses in my book

Any gain in drive chain performance is realistically very small

It's nothing to do with your cycling speed, it's all about reliability, durability effective shifting and feel.

At the risk of straying into the 1x vs 2x debate: I spent about £150 on a new drivetrain replacing a widely respected 3x9 XTR M970. It saved about 300g, freed up space on my bars and it works much better. No chainsuck and loads of space behind the BB so it gathers less mud and is easier to clean. And oddly, is much smoother in pedalling.

Bought an end of 2018 season 29er with GX Eagle (and Codes). Swapped the alloy 175mm crank in the shop for a 170mm X01. Sold the rest of the SRAM gubbins on ebay as I already had an XT/XTR setup with lots of life remaining and almost new Formula Curas that I really like. Got hold of an XX1 11 speed cassette (non-black so won't show up wear) to go on the XD driver.

I've compromised range at the bottom end vs both Eagle and Shimano 11-46 but this setup keeps me on kit that I know functions really reliably and for which I have spares.

Eagle would give me one lower gear.

having seen some images floating around for m8100 and m7100 specs I'll wait and see what comes out. Shimano have just launched some cheaper micro spline wheels, I would assume that means the new 12spd groupsets are on their way.

I suspect sx is a way to softly replace nx eagle as the mechs that are so poorly made and it's cheaper than saying that they made a mistake with the production specifications and they aren't fit for purpose.

I have no luck with SRAM mechs, always die on me & SRAM took 6 weeks to get my warranty my <6mth old NX mech, Id not want to learn how much quicker a cheaper mech would die! similarly my 11speed nx cassette was heavy enough thanks.

as above NX mechs seem far too fragile ( tho i had similar problems with X7)

IME deore is significantly more rubust than mid/low-range sram & thats from having it on my winter hardtail that sees a lot of mud

I swapped out my gx/nx oem drivetrain for 11-46xt, shift feel is not quite as good as GX but 2way release edges it and the mech has lasted much longer, cassette is much lighter

Thing is I dont want 12 speed, yes I want the range of 10-50 but having a mech that bends from the smallest impact and a drvietrain which can be a real pig to index. Can a compnay not create a 8 or 9 speed 10-50, I have 11 speed 10-42 at the moment and there are so many gears I dont use!

B..b..but, these go up to [i]12[/i] 😆

@oikeith - the problem with such a cassette would be the gap/jump between ratios. Playing around on gear-calculator.com with an 8 speed 10-50 cassette with as even spread of gears as possible the smallest gap would be 19%, the average is around 25%.

I think it's Shimano who have a recommendation that the gap between gears shouldn't be above somewhere in the 15-16% gap otherwise your cadence will take too much of a hit.

Can a compnay not create a 8 or 9 speed 10-50

Given how annoying the jump between the largest two sprockets is on 11-46 I'm going to say no.

What about an 8 or 9 speed system like the old 6 speed Mega Range stuff? Have a close-ish top 6 or 7 ratios with a couple of lower ratios at the bottom. The second lowest cog would only really be there to help the chain up to the lowest one.

@kayla1 - I think you'd be better off with a 2x system.

10spd seems to be the lowest practical generic setup for 1x. Obviously if you are riding in a specific area or event then you can do 1xX as it were, people ride single speed as the extreme example. Big gaps put a lot of strain on the derailleur when changing gear so as well as the massive change in cadence you've also that to consider.

I don't know what the gear changes at the low end on SRAM Eagle is like where there are big ratio changes but on Shimano XT with either an XT or Sunrace cassette those big jumps are quite significant.

Big gaps put a lot of strain on the derailleur when changing gear so as well as the massive change in cadence you’ve also that to consider.

'massive' is a bit overstating it, don't you think? In any case SRAM and some of the Sunrace cassettes are more evenly spaced so they don't have that jump to the final dinner plate gear that Shimano do.

I have 11 speed 10-42 at the moment and there are so many gears I dont use!

It depends entirely where you are riding surely, most of my local stuff is fine with a 30/42 low gear (27.5) but this weekend I was in the lakes and would have gladly used a 46 or a 50T on the cassette. The cost of going 12spd is prohibitive but I'm going to buy a 26 or 28 for those big climbing days.

It depends entirely where you are riding surely

It does. Some parts of the world, even some specific locations have short steep climbs, some have long steep ones, some only have shallow ones. It's entirely location dependent.

Can a compnay not create a 8 or 9 speed 10-50, I have 11 speed 10-42 at the moment and there are so many gears I dont use!

I'd like this too, it would be a great way to reduce unsprung weight for better suspension performance. I think gear boxes will be great for this reason too. Large gaps between gears won't be a huge problem for my winch and plummet riding.

In any case SRAM and some of the Sunrace cassettes are more evenly spaced so they don’t have that jump to the final dinner plate gear that Shimano do.

more even in what way?

the biggest final jumps of all to the dinner plate are SRAM 12sp and sunrace 11+12sp (all 8 teeth jumps to the largest sprocket)

all shimano 11sp 11-42 have less jump than the SRAM equivalent 10/11-42 11sp

shimano xtr 12sp is 6t for each of the final few jumps

only the 7tooth jump on the shimano 11-46 is what I would call "bigger than I'd like" to that dinner plate gear, which I why I have the 42t version (but fancy a bit more range), but is less than sram 12 and sunrace 11/12

either that of the specs on the online store I usually use are totally wrong.

only the 7tooth jump on the shimano 11-46

It's 9 isn't it? 37 to 46?

Re. the 11 speed ratios:

XT 11 speed: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-46
SR 11 speed: 11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-46

I use the Sunrace 46t cassette and the 40-46 gap is fine.

*Sunrace also do 11 speed 50t too: 11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32-36-42-50

Interesting... Even the 11-50 doesn't have a 9 tooth gap anywhere.

Does the normal XT mech handle 50T ok? I guess it's only 5% more, so it should. There's plenty of adjustment in my b-tension screw.

Tooth count on the medium 11 speed XT mech. is 39 - so it should be OK. From memory the XTR version has a smaller tooth count so best to stick with XT if anyone's tempted to try it!

Hope do a 10-48 cassette 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-40-48 which on paper sounds the best of all worlds - but won't run on the Shimano hub and expensive - so not worth it for my 26'er - I just have to spin out and enjoy the scenery occasionally. 🙂

I remember when having 12 gears was exciting the first time round.
Never guessed the bike industry could sell 12 speed as a technical advance again, a few decades later!

kcr

Member

I remember when having 12 gears was exciting the first time round.
Never guessed the bike industry could sell 12 speed as a technical advance again, a few decades later!

I felt the same when double ring 9-speed was the in thing. Oooh, 18 gears!

Also- gaps between rings are proportional not linear- 10-13 would feel massive and 47-50 would feel tiny. Even spacing isn't a benefit in itself