11/12 speed... I don't really get it

It's that simple, it's a bigger rear cassette. That's the reason people run them.

If you could get a 50T setup on a 10sp, we'd all run that.

Maybe we as riders have got lazy instead of grinding out a 36T cassette we now spin a 50T.

pfft my only geared mountain bike is 1x8

Its 7 worse than a singlespeed.

I've used 9 thru 12 and TBH I don't believe that the 11/12 speeds systems wear any quicker or are more fragile. Use 1x and 11 or 12 on my gravel, XC and enduro bikes.

Gear-wise, depends where you ride and how fit you are.

Sure the 50T brings some advantage over a 46T, just seems recently lots of issues with 12 speed in particualr. Could it be that the 1x12 set up with a 50T is really pushing the limits of chain lines and components etc ?

Hey there,

Good thread I have a multitude of bikes from 3x9 to 1x12. To be honest I like them all, sometimes I like the range of the 3x9 but like the simplicity of the 1x setups. For sure the 3x setups or even the 2x10 are cheaper to maintain. All I can say is thank god I can buy SunRace cassettes because they are a damn site cheaper than the Shimano or SRAM ones 😉

JeZ

I've had no more issues with 11/12 speed than I ever did with anything else.

OP you’re missing the many thousands of people running a wide range of gears, with good shifting, who’ve got nothing to moan about on tinternet.

What am I missing ?

1 or 2 extra gears, that's all.

I have lots of steep climbs here and I ride road to get to trails, so I want as wide a range as I can. But I like the simplicity and mud clearance of 1x and being able to use a nice dropper lever. Currently on 1x11 and I don't have issues.

If you were to go back in time 15 years you'd still see people posting about shifting issues. It's just that now you see 1x11/12 issues being posted be wise that's what people are riding.

Every 11 speed set up I've had has worked really well and been very durable. Ended up with shimano 12 speed on a new bike and it's been fine. I was skeptical after reading such threads but I've had no issues with set up or durability. My chains seem to last longer on the 12 speed set up.

But had I never tried 12 speed I'd be perfectly happy with Shimano 11-46.

My 1x11 set up is 3000 miles old and apart from changing the chain four times its been trouble free and still shifts perfectly. I am religious with my cleaning and lubeing regime though.

Every 11 speed set up I’ve had has worked really well and been very durable. Ended up with shimano 12 speed on a new bike and it’s been fine. I was skeptical after reading such threads but I’ve had no issues with set up or durability. My chains seem to last longer on the 12 speed set up.

I have currently done over 5000 miles on a Sram AXS 1x12 speed chain and its still not worn to 0.5. It is on the road bike but it's not even kept particularly clean. Quite amazing really.

I'm currently 1x11 on all 4 of my bikes. One of them was 10-sp and when it wore out I replaced with 11-sp for simplicity/sharing of spares - no other reason. Currently 11-46t with 30t chainring is enough range for me but in the process of swapping one bike to 10-42 with an all-steel SRAM cassette, hopefully for added durability (I've worn out the big cogs in an SLX M7000 11-46t cassette in a very short period of time).

I've yet to try 12-sp but inevitably will probably end up on it sometime. It'd be an expensive swap over if I was to do all 4 bikes, even gradually, due to the need for different freehubs.

I've never had any issues with either Shimano 11 speed (M8000) nor the 52t 12 speed GX Eagle setup I have on my new bike. Wear rates have been the same as any 9 or 10 speed setup I have used. The only gearing that seems to last forever is the older 7 / 8 speed stuff. I still run Shimano 8 speed on my wife's bike.

Essential tool for your toolbox = mech hanger alignment gauge

Watch all the free Park Tool gear setup guides as well as their video on how to use the aforementioned mech hanger alignment gauge. SRAM Eagle seems to be really sensitive to B-Tension. The plastic gauge they make helps get it dialled in. Once set up its been perfect. Super crisp shifting.

I am religious with my cleaning and lubeing regime though.

This too. Reduced tolerances on 11 / 12 speed mean that a gunked-up drivetrain is going to misbehave sooner.

OP you’re missing the many thousands of people running a wide range of gears, with good shifting, who’ve got nothing to moan about on tinternet.

Ha, very succinctly put.

I was gonna say similar. I am on 11sp myself, and my 10-46t cassettes have just about enough range.

I have my prejudices against 12 speed, but they are more about more vulnerable rear mechs and potentially finnicky indexing than cog durability.

My 11sp cassettes (Sram and Sunrace) have been remarkably durable. And my indexing (Shimano) generally excellent.

I've had middle ground 11 speed (SLX), posh 11 speed (XTR) and now posh 12 speed (XTR), my eldest has cheap 10 speed (Deore) and is about to move to middle ground 12 speed (mainly SLX with a smattering of XT) and I've absolutely no qualms about any of it whatsoever.

The 12 doesn't wear any quicker, is no harder to set up, gives you all the range without clunky big steps at the low end, and on XTR at least in a combined 9000+km I've never had need to even adjust the cable tension on the rear mech.

The M9100 XTR chains are absolutely phenomenal - granted I kind of look after mine, as in I clean the cassette and chain ring and keep the chain sweet with SquirtLube- but it took over 1800km to get anywhere near 0.5% worn before I changed it.

I have my prejudices against 12 speed, but they are more about more vulnerable rear mechs and potentially finnicky indexing than cog durability.

I think a lot of that is down to you only see the bad posts on the internets, once they're set up right (not even remotely hard for anyone with a modicum of technical ability) and you actually have the correct gearing in place for where you ride, so you're not spending loads of time in the 3 biggest (alloy on XT & XTR) cogs it lasts just as well as 11 speed.

12 speed GX Eagle here.

Nothing to report.

Previously 11 speed XT.

Also no issues.

coconut
What am I missing ?

People buying/fitting new gearing are the ones who have problems, and those people are buying 1x12, hence you hearing more about it

I think a lot of that is down to you only see the bad posts on the internets

A bit, but I briefly tried 12 speed and damaged the SLX mech on about the third ride. Maybe just bad luck, but it did seem to sit noticeably lower and to be a bit flimsy.

And friends had horrible trouble with GX 12sp rear mechs self-destructing. Was a design fault fixed there though?

Seems the Cassettes on 12 speed are wearing quickly and issues with the rear mech alignment set up/shifting.

I'd say that the mix of GX, XO1 that I've currently got is the most hardest wearing group-set I've ever owned, I've changed inner cable and adjusted the b tension a coupler of times and that's it over 3 plus years and 5000kms

 I don’t really get the selling point of 11/12 speed, except the obvious different gearing ratios. What am I missing ?

If you ride in places that used to have you drop into the granny, then you more or less got the same range with 12sp, whereas your 10 speed doesn't quite have the same range. that's it. If you don't think you need that, there's no point in buying it, but that's also true of every gearing system that's ever existed

Theres always a percentage of any given population of users that end up bleating something along the lines of

'Wah! New! Different! I dont understand it as well! I've had some trouble with new stuff!'

Many of these issues are interelated or just bad luck, which, if it happena on new gear must be cause its rubbish, right?.

My take on GX Eagle. I blew up a mech and chain on my second ride when its was new in 2017, but that was in a rocky shute with chunder flying all over the place.

Since then, I've found mechs last about the same as 10 speed, the cassettes are bomb proof and as long as you buy x01 chains or above they last as well as anything previously. X-sync 2 tooth profiling is also the best there is IMO. It lasts really quite a long time and runs flawlessly and quietly with much better resistance to chainsuck than more square edged designs.

Quite timely as I've just scored a 9 speed, 26" BFe to do up. It currently has 3x9 and I'm going to replace that with an old 1x11 drivetrain I took off my "good" bike recently. Why? Mostly aesthetics really.

And friends had horrible trouble with GX 12sp rear mechs self-destructing. Was a design fault fixed there though?

I might be wrong, but I think the SRAM stuff sits further out than the Shimano stuff, that a no doubt there's some inexpensive plastic / muck metal bit in the GX that will be weaker than the carbon / stainless / Ti bits in the top end stuff

it did seem to sit noticeably lower

I did think this could be an issue, particularly if you are on smaller wheels and fit 12sp. Surely the cage is longer?

If you could get a 50T setup on a 10sp, we’d all run that.

No we wouldn't... I think you can anyway but I certainly can for my 11sp and don't because I can't see the point of having a gear you don't use... I have a 46 on one set of wheels I put on for inners but other than that it's not used in my local riding.

A11y

I’m currently 1×11 on all 4 of my bikes. One of them was 10-sp and when it wore out I replaced with 11-sp for simplicity/sharing of spares – no other reason. Currently 11-46t with 30t chainring is enough range for me but in the process of swapping one bike to 10-42 with an all-steel SRAM cassette, hopefully for added durability (I’ve worn out the big cogs in an SLX M7000 11-46t cassette in a very short period of time)

I’ve yet to try 12-sp but inevitably will probably end up on it sometime. It’d be an expensive swap over if I was to do all 4 bikes, even gradually, due to the need for different freehubs.

This EXACTLY.... except I have steel sunrace....

I don’t really get the selling point of 11/12 speed, except the obvious different gearing ratios. What am I missing ?

11sp chains are cheaper than 10sp....
I usually pay a tenner for 11sp (PC1110)... but been forced to pay £13 lately... 🙁

I might be wrong, but I think the SRAM stuff sits further out than the Shimano stuff, that a no doubt there’s some inexpensive plastic / muck metal bit in the GX that will be weaker than the carbon / stainless / Ti bits in the top end stuff

From hazy memory, I think it was more something to do with the jockey wheels jamming and causing the mech to explode?

Surely the cage is longer?

Yep I think it is. Hasn't made any appreciable difference though. Having said that I'm not a mech smasher, if you are a mech smasher it's something to consider I guess.

I haven't noticed any problems. I've had 2 or 3 NX setups now, and have found them the easiest setup of any that I've used, smooth in use and pretty resilient. No snapped chains either, which obviously means I'm going to snap my chain next time out, doesn't it?

OP you’re missing the many thousands of people running a wide range of gears, with good shifting, who’ve got nothing to moan about on tinternet.

Indeed. To add to this, most people who've bought any new drivetrain in the last 7-8 years are going to be on 11 or 12 speed. Which is basically everyone here bar a few (righteous) outliers. 10spd is mostly fine too, but aside from the range, you're also missing out on 10+ years of design evolution. 12 speed is good, it works.

I think what you're perhaps getting at is whether we could have all the current range and shifting tech with only 10 cogs not 12, and would that have some advantages? I am not a bike engineer but I suspect the answer is "yes and no". The gaps on a 10-52 cassette are pretty big, even on 12spd. They'd be significantly worse if there were only 10 cogs / 9 intervals.

P.S. I'm OK with calling them cogs.

I think Box do a 9sp (the snappily named Box One) cassette that has 11-50 range, and that's supposed to be very good.

I’d say that the mix of GX, XO1 that I’ve currently got is the most hardest wearing group-set I’ve ever owned, I’ve changed inner cable and adjusted the b tension a coupler of times and that’s it over 3 plus years and 5000kms

Same here. Think things have just got better across the board.

In the old days I was always tuning stuff and changing cables. Barely do a thing now.

Got 11/12 SRAM. And recently wireless SRAM it's amazing.

Good point made above re gaps between cogs: wider range on <11sp wouldn't be ideal, even on 11-sp SLX I find the bigger gaps at the top of the cassette less than ideal and is another reason I'm trying 10-42 SRAM on one bike:

11-sp SLX M7000 11-46: 46-37-32-28-24-21-19-17-15-13-11
11-sp SRAM XG1150 10-42: 42-36-32-28-24-21-18-16-14-12-10

Smaller gaps at the top of the SRAM cassette. I'm dropping from a 30t to 28t chainring at the same time to maintain the same low end, yet its still giving me a bigger top end 30/11 vs 28/10.

I imagine 12-sp will be even better re gaps but it's another level of expense for me.

I think the gigantic rear cassettes are pointless. If you need that low of a gear, you're better off (and quicker) walking. I have 32t chainring with 42t cassette, I don't think anything easier than that is necessery.

I also think the easier bigger gears are also making us weaker. You used to be forced to muscle up climbs, now you stick it in an easy gear and spin up at your leisure.

None of my SRAM or Shimano 11 speed shifts anywhere as nicely as my old 10 speed SRAM X9 on my 'old' hardtail.

I have had setup issues with 12 speed so I do think it's a little more finnicky than 11, but most people don't and once you've got it running right it's running right. I suspect it's less tolerant than older systems to either slightly out of alignment hangers or slightly out of spec B-tension, but both of those can be got right and should've been before anyway.

I can well imagine the increase in both width of cassette and cassette gear spread will drive some extra wear and/or sensitivity. If it does then its a choice you make for the extra gear range.

I've also complained about the durability of a 12 speed Deore mech, but then the durability of 9 speed SRAM I found pretty bad too. 12 speed xt I found better, but it's a sample size of just 2. Also possible my riding has become a bit harder on kit nowadays.

In terms of basic reliability my shimano 11 speed stuff might be the best I've ever had.

There is some data somewhere that says some 12 speed chains last longer than the older ones, I think, although I'd be sceptical.

I also think the easier bigger gears are also making us weaker. You used to be forced to muscle up climbs, now you stick it in an easy gear and spin up at your leisure.

I've never been the punchiest climber, but with wider range cassettes I can muscle up bits that I used to have to push.

Also, bigger wheels have effectively make our gearing harder anyway, especially if combined with shorter cranks.

If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking.

I like going out for a bike ride, not a hill walk.

spicer
Free Member
I think the gigantic rear cassettes are pointless. If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking. I have 32t chainring with 42t cassette, I don’t think anything easier than that is necessery.

Nah, the size of the cassette is largely irrelevant; it's the combination of cassette & chainring that's important.
3x9 was generally run with 22 inner ring & 32 or 34 cassette which are both 'easier' than 1x with 32/42. 46 & 50T cassettes get you basically to the equivalent 'ease' of the 32 and 34T cassettes as used on 3x9.
So, most people would have been just as 'spinny' historically with 3x9 as they are with dinner plate cassettes.

It was much better when we had smaller range cassettes and a choice of front rings because nobody, ever, complained that they couldn't set up their front mech.

So, most people would have been just as ‘spinny’ historically with 3×9 as they are with dinner plate cassettes.

True, I was comparing with earlier 1x setups.

I also think the easier bigger gears are also making us weaker. You used to be forced to muscle up climbs, now you stick it in an easy gear and spin up at your leisure.

There speaks someone who never had 22:36t ratio on a 26" wheel bike. 22:36 is almost precisely the same ratio as 32:52.

N.B. it's worth noting that if you are using 29er wheels and 165mm cranks, the reduced leverage given by that combination makes it feel approx 18% 'harder' than the same gear ratio on an older bike with 26" wheels and 175mm cranks, too. Or, to put it another way, you'd need to change your 32t front sprocket to a (hypothetical) 27t one to give you the same feel at the pedals.

I think the gigantic rear cassettes are pointless. If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking. I have 32t chainring with 42t cassette, I don’t think anything easier than that is necessery.

I also think the easier bigger gears are also making us weaker. You used to be forced to muscle up climbs, now you stick it in an easy gear and spin up at your leisure.

None of my SRAM or Shimano 11 speed shifts anywhere as nicely as my old 10 speed SRAM X9 on my ‘old’ hardtail.

That’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it - some other people’s opinions may differ.

For me I’m running a fairly ‘robust’ 29er full suss bike and I love the 30t / 51t combination and use it most rides. I’m not some puny legged fat man either - I’ve got an ftp of 251w at 75kgs in weight and carry a bit of upper body from weight training. I’d think I’m around average fitness cycling wise.

I’d debate whether walking was as fast as spinning the 30/51 combo in all situations. When you’re really gurning up something steep and technical (helped from the extra grip 29er wheels seem to give) then yes walking is probably faster. But when you’re 30km and over 1000m of climbing into a ride, that low ratio gives you the opportunity to spin out some lactic acid on fireroad climbs etc. A lot of my climbs aren’t made magically easier though from having that low ratio.

On the gearing front id say my Sram GX 11 speed was peak gear functionality. Snappy gear changes, long lasting steel cassettes and not a bad range. My 10 speed 2x10 Sram X9 rear mech went horribly sloppy in short order. 10 speed GX mechs were an improvement in durability.

I’m on both Sram and XT 12 speed drivetrains across my 2 bikes - I’d say the Sram shifting is my preferred version due to the lighter shift lever feel, but the Shimano cassette has a better jump between the low gears. Sram make the better chains (using XX1 chains) and chainrings - but Shimano have better bottom bracket longevity.

What about the cost of the components? When I built our two bikes up I chose not to go 1x entirely due to the silly costs at the time (that was in 2017 😳).

If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking.

This is simply not true, from experience of a variety of gears over the last few decades. Walking is not quicker, it's also much less fun. I'm out for a ride not a push.

34/51 is still taller than 22/34 from back in the day anyway, and I don't recall that many internet show-offs criticising people for running that setup.

I like my 11 speed for the big bail out gear but would happily run 10 speed with a 28t or 30t chain ring instead, maybe then I could afford fancier gears than NX (which has worked flawlessly)

i never got my SRAM 12 speed to work. everytime i crashed, or it gets muddy, or went through some grass, or just because it knew it would wind me up, it would knock itself out of index and i`d spend teh next 3 rides faffing or skipping. the SRAM mech never really worked from new. teh replacement better one was marginally better for a short period but still very crap. the cheap shimano one was waaaaay better (and is still in use but on a way less used bike) but is still crap.

hated it.

have gone to an AdventX 10speed on the main bike (eeb) and its ace. 12speed is crap for what/where/how i ride - natural muddy rooty slop. wetter the better.

What about the cost of the components?

They are expensive fo'shure, but you have factor in the longevity

I've got Eagle GX on my old bike and AdventX on my new bike.

The only problem I had with the Eagle GX was the chain dropping onto the jockey wheel and wrecking the mech - this was before SRAM added the ridge to the jockey wheel to stop it happening.

The AdventX is fine although I do miss the 50t crawler gear. I don't really feel any difference other than that.

I think the gigantic rear cassettes are pointless. If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking. I have 32t chainring with 42t cassette, I don’t think anything easier than that is necessery.

Your 32/42 set up gives you a 0.76 ratio.

My 40/51 set up gives me a 0.78 ratio. (Higher on my 42/51)

You've got a slightly easier gear than those of us with 1x, but with the added complexity and expense of extra chain rings, mechs, shifters, etc.

TLDR : you are wrong!

Bringing it back to basics, for me anything 1x is preferable to a multi-chainring setup (for MTBing). Both hands doing two things equally: one brake lever and one other lever - gear lever and dropper lever. Easy.

So much better for kids learning too. I lead groups at our local club and dismayed at the amount of kids MTBs still coming with front mechs. So much better for kids knowing that they press one lever for an easier gear and the other lever for a harder gear, without all the overlap and complication of a front mech.

What a11y said, left thunb is for a dropper, not a shifter. MTB has moved on from 2x/3x.

The overlap between multiple front rings is just wasted weight

I bought 2 bikes, they had 1x12 setups (1 Sram, 1 Shimano, coincidentally). I've had no end of problems, so I'm going to purchase new shifters, chains, cassettes and rear mechs so that they work betterer. No, that's nonsense, they've both been perfect. There's some proper bollocks spouted on this thread, to be sure.

I think the gigantic rear cassettes are pointless. If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking.

Factually correct, but entirely missing the point.

From memory I've had 7 bikes with 12sp drivetrains and not had an issue with any of them. My Chromag is coming up to two years old and only recently replaced the chain as it hit .5 on the checker. Replaced the inner shift cable for the first time but it didn't really need doing.

Yep for the 12 speed backers - I've been running Shim/SRAM 12 spd for a few years now and find it just as durable (if not more so) than 1x 11 speed etc. Only issue I've had is the usual hanger alignment shifting problem once, easily fixed.

I do think that 12sp 10-50/1/2 is now about the sweet spot for 1x cassette range - give you roughly what a 26" triple used to give you without the front mech faffery. Can't say I really notice any gaps in 12 speed 1x cassettes either, esp the Shimano ones. (I have been running a 1x 11 spd 10-42 on my cross bike as a road bike and really do notice the 2 tooth gaps on that vs a road bike 11-28 for reference, but obviously MTB tends to be much more variable cadence so not an issue for me).

Incidentally, the OP complaining about "these massive cassettes" has an 11-46 - which is by most standards, a MASSIVE cassette

Incidentally, the OP complaining about “these massive cassettes”

Incidentally, he didn't.

I do think that 12sp 10-50/1/2 is now about the sweet spot for 1x cassette range – give you roughly what a 26″ triple used to give you without the front mech faffery.

Yes, and you can offset the wheel size effect by choosing a different chainring. I really don't think 13sp is needed, 12 is enough for MTBs.

I still run 10 speed on both my bikes, 32t chainring, 11-46 cassettes.

From a mechanical and economic point of view, until recently I haven't really seen the point of 'upgrading'. 10 speed is pretty forgiving with less than perfect indexing, is pretty cheap and just continues to work and last for ages. (Saint shifter, XT rear mech and Sunrace cassette, SP41 outer, shimano inner fwiw)

However, as I've gradually upped the wheel sizes of my bikes to 29er and the type of riding I find myself doing evolving more towards the winch and plummet, I'm starting to look more and more at 11 and 12 speed to increase the range.

Sure, I can continue to 'muscle' up climbs but after 3 or 4 hours of doing this, I'm too knackered to enjoy the descents while all my mates are spinning up the same climbs and are relatively fresh at the top.

So, from a 10 speed stalwart, for me, the point of 11/12 speed is exactly what the OP describes, that being the differing gearing ratios. While I don't agree with all the issues of 11/12 speed listed in the OP - too many of my friends are riding 12sp without issue to warrant merit, if you don't need the additional range of gears then 10 speed works perfectly fine.

coconut

Incidentally, he didn’t.

Sorry, that should have read "for those complaining"....has come out rather different than intended.

Also, along the lines of a11y up there, 1x drive trains are so much better for CX and also for kids categorised road racing as they're all gear restricted so there's no point really having 2 front rings until Youth B (U14) as with 1x you can have the simplicity of one shifter, a good range of gears and considerably less to go wrong, especially in grassy mud clog 'fest that is CX.

Sure, I can continue to ‘muscle’ up climbs but after 3 or 4 hours of doing this,

Nobody needs to muscle up climbs any differently on 10sp, 11sp, or 12sp because the same climbing gears are covered by every transmission. Even a triple ring 90s MTB with 22 lowest front and 11-28 rear has roughly the same lowest gear as my current 11 or 12sp 1x.

Nobody needs to muscle up climbs any differently on 10sp, 11sp, or 12sp because the same climbing gears are covered by every transmission.

Eh, no, not really. You could be winching up a climb in 28/51 with 12 speed, which is a ratio of 0.54, much lower than the benchmark 22/34 of traditional 3x9. However chainrings don't come any smaller than 28, so if you only have 10 speed you are looking at 28/48 (the biggest on CRC) if you can get it to fit, which you might not because that's a stretch. 28/48 is 0.58, and there will be some significant compromises elsewhere in the riding experience due to a pretty tiny top gear and big jumps in the cassette. So your assertion is not true from a technical level but also pretty unlikely from a practical one I'd say. having a 51t cassette allows you to use a 32 or 34t ring and get a sensible top gear and still have the bottom gear you might want.

Even a triple ring 90s MTB with 22 lowest front and 11-28 rear has roughly the same lowest gear as my current 11 or 12sp 1x.

It doesn't have the same low gear as mine. Plus no-one ran 28t cassettes in the 90s except roadies.

Eh, no, not really.

Balsacks! You are right because I used a 40T front ring (as found on my gravel bike) instead of the 30 or 32T (as found on my MTBs). Apologies everyone. As usual, I'm the idiot.

It doesn’t have the same low gear as mine. Plus no-one ran 28t cassettes in the 90s except roadies.

But you are wrong here. My first few mid-90s MTBs had triples, with 7sp cassettes of 11-28. When I rode the Etape in 2000, I remember trying to get hold of an 11-27 cassette for my road bike - they had only just been released in that size.

What am I missing ?

Mountains to ride your mountain bike up obviously.

My first few mid-90s MTBs had triples, with 7sp cassettes of 11-28.

My 1992 Kona had 13-32 I'm pretty sure, I never heard of anyone using 11-28 on MTBs, you're the first. The Kona also had I think 46/36/24 chainrings as MicroDrive (tm) hadn't yet come out on Shimano, again IIRC.

My 1992 Kona had 13-32 I’m pretty sure, I never heard of anyone using 11-28 on MTBs, you’re the first.

1994 Marin brochure below - every MTB that I can see listed as 11-28, up to XT level.

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=134356&g2_serialNumber=2&g2_fileName=Marin+1994+English+Catalogue.pdf

The 1992 Kona brochure has 13-30 on the cheaper bikes and 12-28s on the more expensive.

.html

Oab_household is pretty much all 11sp.
We have one 10sp and one 12sp.
The 12sp is seemingly fussy over setup.
10 and 11sp is very similar, but 11sp has fewer jumps and wider range, for no discernable difference IME>

When I first got into mountain biking I remember seeing exactly the same stuff on the internet, but it was criticising the new 9 speed stuff instead of 11/12 speed. Longevity, reliability, 'oh why did they have to change it, 8 speed worked perfectly fine' etc etc

On a side note, it does make me wonder how many sprockets we'll end up with!

Of course you could have an even greater range without those bloody awful gaps. And so much simpler. Go triple. You avoid a stupidly long and complex rear mech and a hefty cassette. All for the penalty of the simplest and most foolproof part ever fitted to a bike, the front mech.

A triple is just a giant cassette on the front

the front mech.

The other reason it had to go of course, was full suss 29ers. At some point you need to fit a front mech, some suspension that works, a pivot, a bearing or two, a wheel and tyre and space for 3 rings at the front, a water bottle perhaps, and route the dropper somewhere through all that.

Remove the need for a front mech, and pretty much all those other issues go away.

Having run SRAM 1x12 on all my bikes for the last 4 years Ive had exactly zero issues at all. Ive barely had to adjust a derailleur nor bugger all. If you don't have it, your loss.

Zero Friction Cycling does a lot of testing of drive trains on his dyno set ups and publishes all the results online: https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/

His results show that for many systems, the 12sp lasts longer / wears slower than 11sp than 10sp under his test conditions. IIRC most of it relates to road drive trains, but still not the result I was expecting.

Chains have got thinner, but they're made out of harder metals so last longer.

Have 2 12spd setups in the house, an XT group and a GX/XT hybrid (Shimano mech and shifter, Gx cassette and chain), both have lasted ages, XT is still on original chain after almost 3 years And still below .5mm

cassettes are both holding up fine and have both lasted longer than 10 and 11 speed variants.

Pah, what's wrong with 3 x 7 ? 🙂

I make use of the full range of 3*8 on my Marassa for commutes, 26/36 through to 48/12. I've been very lazy in sorting out the front mech on my Attain GTC to reliably shift into both rings, fortunately I'm getting up everything in the 50 ring with 11-34 cassette, avoiding anything ~12%+ for more than a few seconds... No thoughts of a dropper yet. 😉

Chains have got thinner, but they’re made out of harder metals so last longer.

So...if we had an 10 speed chain made of the same stuff would it last forever!?

I used to run Alivio 8spd shifters and an LX rear mech most of the time.

Or singlespeed.

Now I have Deore 12 speed 10-50t/11-51t cassettes and shifters and it's amazing. Don't have the setup problems of before. Wear seems good. One of my cassettes has the 11th sprocket in the wrong place I think (some strange ticking/rubbing) but otherwise I wouldn't go back.

In fact, after 15 months of modern 12spd Deore gear i finally, accidentally, found the 2-way shifting system on the shifter (rofl!) where I can more easily push the lever forwards instead of wrenching my wrist to change gear!!!

11sp holding up fine under huge stresses on the eeeeeeeeb