[Closed] Thank god for helmets

Couldn't agree more! Hope your mate is ok!

Oh no !

'He' will be along shortly...

Hey. Don't say His name.

AAAAAAAARRGHHHH..... [runs for cover]

NB: Had two similar in August. One being a youngster I was training whose bars snapped resulting in a face first full speed impact with a tree. That resulted in nothing more than a precautionary ambulance trip on blues and twos for a scan which revealed no damage other than to the tree and her helmet (which was totalled), and the other being another young racer who fell and smacked her temple on a rock. A fact she was unaware of until after the race when she realised she had taken a semicircle of material out of the rim of her helmet, but leaving her unware and unscathed. Of course the rotational forces did untold damage and that will only become clear later in both cases 😉

[img] [/img]

Don't worry i'm sure he's been alerted the by red buzzer on his desk. 😀

I'm not trying to whip up another long pointless debate, just stating my first hand experience!

So why post?

Helmets are good, since walking in all muddy into Tesco express; you get strange looks without a helmet, but with one people instantly know your a mountain biker and all is well 🙂

So why post?

You quoted me, did you not read it before you quoted it!?

just stating my first hand experience!

He's alright, no need for surgery so just rest and recoup. TBH I expected some non-wearing helmets to wade in and say this and that, but if someone buys brakes that work really well you stick a post up saying these work well, or good tyres etc. I saw a helmet do its job exceptionally well so I thought I'd share it! Bell helmet, if you don't have one, consider buying one.

I do seem to be seeing more riders about nowadays without helmets.

Is this a trend - are more stupid people starting to mountain bike?

I've never seen a thread that says I bought some brakes, brakes are great you should all buy brakes they helped me stop and saved my life. People do recommend a model or make of brake that they consider works better than others which is quite different to just saying brakes are great use them.

I suppose the reason that people don't post the brakes are great type thread is that they assume that most people on here understand the purpose of a bicycle brake and are able to make up there own mind as to whether they use them or not (you know who you are you cheeky fixie riders). It would be nice if people could take the same approach for helmets and there usage.

erm... 420 posts so far...

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/psa-xt-m785-brakes ]PSA: XT Brakes[/url]

People do recommend a model or make of brake that they consider works better than others which is [b]quite different to just saying brakes are great use them[/b].

[img] [/img]

My helmet after going OTB and colliding head first with some anti vehicle railings along side a canal bridge...note how much the helmet is crushed in along the edge in the middle of the photo. It still scares me to think what my skull would have been like had it been crushed in by that amount.

Ok, quote where I "just stated brakes are great, use them"?

i actually said: if someone buys brakes that work really well you stick a post up saying these work well. Just like someone bought the new XTs at a good price and they perform well so they shared it. Simples.

I'm obviously not saying "I bought some brakes, brakes are great you should all buy brakes they helped me stop and saved my life." cos that would be rather retarded.

"[i]erm... 420 posts so far... PSA: XT Brakes[/i]"

Point totally missed.

That thread is analogous to one that says "I've seen Giro Hex helmets for £30, can't be bad".

This thread is analogous to one that says "My mate went down a path that ended near a road, with cars in it and stuff, but he had brakes so he was able to stop in time. I've always been an advocate of brakes and this shows how important brakes are. And the point of this post is definitely not to start an argument about whether you should use brakes, even though there appears to be no other point to it at all."

Bloke falls off bike, hits helmet, meh.

Helmets are designed to break on heavy impacts, arn't they? So a blow that damages your helmet wouldn't necessarily crack your skull in the same way...

/devils advocate

"[i]i actually said: if someone buys brakes that work really well you stick a post up saying these work well.[/i]"

But the point is that you'd post "I used Brake X and found it was loads better than Brake Y".

Your post was nothing to do with one helmet being better than other (which you wouldn't know anyway unless you can persuade your mate to repeat the experiment precisely with a variety of helmets). It didn't even mention which helmet it was, let alone whether it might be better than any other.

Respectable effort if you're trolling though.

"[i]I'm obviously not saying "I bought some brakes, brakes are great you should all buy brakes they helped me stop and saved my life." cos that would be rather retarded.[/i]"

No, you were saying "My mate bought a helmet, helmets are great you should all buy helmets they helped him bounce and saved his life." Which is only a bunch of nouns and pronouns different to your "retarded" example.

Brakes [i]cause[/i] accidents!!

It still scares me to think what my skull would have been like had it been [s]crushed in by that amount.[/s][b] Made from polystyrene[/b]

Helmets make you hit your head!

Thank gawd for jelly babies. without jelly babies I would never get anywhere

You've got a helmet made out of jelly babies?

The brakes analogy was a theme continued from your second post.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear, my point was that we all know what a helmet is and how it's supposed to work.
And although to your credit you did not state it, these threads always descend into ridiculing anybody that chooses to not wear a helmet, regardless of their reasons.

Helmets make you hit your head!

I've worn one for 25 years and haven't hit my head in that time thus both disproving your statement and proving your general viewpoint which is that there are plenty of times when they are unnecessary.

And what's the best way to keep the jelly babies stuck to your head?

I've got a slice of toast, butter side down, strapped to the top of my helmet with a cat superglued to it feet down.

You can't be too careful.

(wear a helmet - I can't count how many times I hit my hat on branches and stuff in the woods).

smacked my helmet mounted light off a low branch the other night. it's over the entrance to a hidden singletrack trail I ride all the time, you need to hop a wall to get into it and with no helmet I've never hit my head.

where can I get a decent mount to fit my light straight on my head?

GW - I find a m6 bolt into the skull works fine - stainless or Ti preferred

When I came off at Surprise View in the Pesk District at about 25mph I was glad I was wearing my helment, from how I headbutted the drystone wall.

I'm sure there are instances where a helmet doesn't help much, but from the way I got neck ache from the force of head butting the uneven rock, I think I could have damaged my skull.

My helmet split and I was concussed for two and a half weeks, i'm just glad it saved my skull from hitting hard against something pointy.

Tim

Occasionally I don't wear my helmet if i'm pottering, but I do most of the time.

Car drivers are supposed to take more care around helmentless drivers, so possibly there could be something in it?

shouldn't we have seen evidence of helmets making 30% of impacts worse for the wearer by now from all these anecdotal stories ?

Look I'm not trolling, I was simply stating that this was my first experience of witnessing a high impact to the head and I was alarmed as to how bad it looked and how much the helmet absorbed. I'm glad it was that and not his head. My personal view is that children should wear helmets, adults it should be personal choice or club rules. If people make an informed decision then that's their choice. He's my mate so I have an invested interest in his well being, I don't know you so I don't care about your well being unless it impinges on mine or my family/friends.

Anyone who doesn't wear a helmet is doing so for their own reasons, if you're not putting anyone in danger other than you then so be it, it's your life, live it how you wish.

However, because someone chooses not to wear one doesn't mean I'm not allowed to tell people the benefits of my mate wearing his. And that goes to the militant pro group as much as the super defensive non wearing group.

Anyway, he's in the proper cycling club now he's broken his clavicle! After seeing it I can't say I'm in a rush to join him!!

I was glad to be wearing my helmet today - best protection against branches!!

I don't know you so I don't care about your well being unless it impinges on mine or my family/friends.

****

Klunk - Member

shouldn't we have seen evidence of helmets making 30% of impacts worse for the wearer by now from all these anecdotal stories ?

You cannot with an y certaintly say what would have happened if they werenot wearing one.

However it is one of / a part of the possible explanations for the proven fact that as helmet wearing rates increase head injury rates do not decrease

In response to a few things said back at me I just want to put across a few pointers from my experience of a head on crash and then I'm out of here !

I was travelling down a hill at 33mph and met a Landrover on a single track bridge coming round a blind corner where 364 days a year there are never any cars. It was no ones fault.

I BRAKED in an instant panic and the bike locked up and I went OTB, cleared the Landrover mid air and went head first into the railings. There was no time to make a gentle braking action and power slide to the right and it was automatic to break hard, NO ONE would do any different in that situation. It's the same as falling off a cliff, if you see a branch you will grab for it, you don't have time to wonder if it will hold your weight or if it's covered in thorns.

I don't even remember what colour the Landrover was(or that it was a Landrover) let alone going over the bars. From the moment I rounded the corner and hit the brakes my mind has blanked the lot.

I clearly hit the railings full on head first. The witness said I din't even have chance to hold out my hands, so there was no natural instinct kicking in to help save me.

I spent two nights in hospital, the first in intensive care whilst the swelling around my brain was settled.

Doctors opinion and my opinion... the helmet saved my life, and nothing anyone else is going to persuade me otherwise. That's what a near death experience does to you BUT....

...you're all individual and all entitled to you own opinion and you all have your own life choices to make. Perhaps I though can appreciate more how quickly and easily it can all be snuffed out and how in most cases you won't know a thing about it but those around you will.

You cannot with an y certaintly say what would have happened if they werenot wearing one.

[i]If a tree falls in the woods, and there is no-one there to hear it....[/i]

😉

have we hand anyone post on here that their helmet made the injury worse ? let alone 1 in 3!

excitable - if you couldn't stop in time you were going too fast, and if you crashed and locked up you need to improve your braking skills.

Two areas at a quick glance that may have led you to be able to avoid the accident.

I far prefer active safety- avoiding accidents to passive safety - mitigating the effects of them.

"[i]However, because someone chooses not to wear one doesn't mean I'm not allowed to tell people the benefits of [something that happened when] my mate [was] wearing his.[/i]"

FTFY.

Benefits can only really be worked out once you've performed a valid control.

The brakes on my first couple of bikes were utter shite and I invariably used the toe of my school shoes as a reliable substitute! My mum used to go bonkers.
40 years on I've got proper brakes and they're great; they stop me every time that that I use them early enough and I get none of the parental backlash.
I recommend them over Freeman Hardy & Willis uppers any day. 😆

"[i]I was travelling down a hill at 33mph and met a Landrover on a single track bridge coming round a blind corner where 364 days a year there are never any cars. It was no ones fault... NO ONE would do any different in that situation.[/i]"

33mph (quite fast) downhill (where you can subtract a component of gravity from your braking force) on a bicycle (a vehicle not known for its control and effectiveness under braking) round a blind corner (where you have severely restricted ability to react) on a bridge (where you may be unweighted and thus less able to brake) on a singletrack road (where you have no space to avoid oncoming vehicles)?

You're not seeing anything in that?

I think the factors for helmet wearing and protection kinematics are rather different between road and offroad. There isn't much data AFAIK for off-road collisions as compared to road. As a result I think its inappropriate and unrepresentative to extrapolate findings from road studies to off-road.

Sounds about right scienceofficer - I have been able to find almost nothing about offroad accidents and helmets.

Right, I've had it with this argument.

For once and for all, we're going to strap Olympus and TJ to two identical bikes and push them into a variety of identical crashes. After each one we'll dissect them to see what effect there was from wearing/ not wearing a helmet.

excitable1

cleared the Landrover mid air

This never happened.

excitable1 - Member

I BRAKED in an instant panic and the bike locked up and I went OTB, <edit> NO ONE would do any different in that situation.

You can't learn from your mistakes until you admit them.

My friend fell off the first piece of northshore at sherwood pines as it was wet and slippy... landed on his head and broke his collar bone, his helmet was completely smashed yet his head was fine.

I know it's people own fredom of choice whether they do or not, but I can't see many reason for not wearing one, other than the misconception that its not cool to wear one.

I prefer not to wear a helmet. This Saturday a friend and I were out on the road bikes. Without going into too much detail ..

He had an over the bars experience at over 40mph.
Glancing over my shoulder, as his bars crossed, and he went head first onto the road .. doing the expected cartwheels two or three times before ending up in a heap, bleeding and groaning.
This kinda convinced me to start wearing my helmet.
The ambulance took him away - but if it was me who had came off its very probable the undertakers woulda been taking me away.

Yep. I `ll be wearing mine from now on. 😕

I've never suffered concussion when not wearing a helmet, only when wearing one. If you don't want to suffer concussion don't wear a helmet.

Haha Nicko I'm not signing up for that!!

And whoever questioned my Christian response, I'm not a Christian so I don't have to follow their code.

Bez, I'm sure you're a troll but if you want a control his elbow or his shoulder provided that and they're now both skinned. He has skin on his elbow just like he has skin on his head so there's the comparison you crave. People seem to make a big deal as to skull fractures but it's the brain cell damage that you should be worried about. They're, in fact most internal tissue, is very soft. And before you question me further I've touched plenty due to work so I'm not just spouting stuff I've read on the net.

I've had concussion more times than I can remember.

Fourbanger

This never happened.

LOL... ahhhh you were there, did you nick my bike computer too.

Serious though. It was a single track bridge and the Landrover was stopped on the brow of it. I left the bike in front of the Landrover and landed in the railings behind it. The passengers witness statement said I 'flew past her window like Superman' !

It would have been funny if I could remember it !!

"Bez, I'm sure you're a troll but if you want a control his elbow or his shoulder provided that and they're now both skinned. He has skin on his elbow just like he has skin on his head so there's the comparison you crave."

Huh? That's not a control at all.

And at best you're comparing skin abrasion, which is hardly critical stuff in most cases.

"It was a single track bridge and the Landrover was stopped on the brow of it."

So you're riding in a manner where you can't avoid a stationary vehicle without hospitalising yourself and it's "no-one's fault"?

😆

33mph (quite fast) downhill (where you can subtract a component of gravity from your braking force) on a bicycle (a vehicle not known for its control and effectiveness under braking) round a blind corner (where you have severely restricted ability to react) on a bridge (where you may be unweighted and thus less able to brake) on a singletrack road (where you have no space to avoid oncoming vehicles)?

You'd have been going slower if you'd not been wearing a helmet. You'd not have crashed. The helmet made the crash worse.

QED

My favourite "thank goodness I was wearing a helmet" story was the guy who was head-down in a timetrial and rode his bike into a stationary tractor.

He was badly hurt, but thank goodness he was wearing his helmet and everyone else should always wear one.

I'll look where I'm going, instead.

I really love the helmet threads, they just go to prove that obviously intelligent people are sometimes somewhat lacking in the common sense department... Some people are exhibiting an almost fundemtalist need to cling to their views.

For once and for all, we're going to strap Olympus and TJ to two identical bikes and push them into a variety of identical crashes. After each one we'll dissect them to see what effect there was from wearing/ not wearing a helmet.

^Absolutley ****ing hilarious. Have to clean beer off my keyboard now^

From another perspective re head injuries and any possible prevention - my girlfriend sustained a head injury nothing to do with biking - a severe concussion from being hit on the head.

I have never had such a bad year looking after her. Her memory / cognitive abilities and personality changed for the worse - thankfully she is on the mend now.

Most people / her workmates / family and friends had no idea initially what effect it had on her. She was a real mess - couldnt walk properly / concentrate or focus. She was unable to work / drive or care 100pc for herself for months. Her mental state and emotions were a mess. People generally have no idea what even a 'trivial blow' to the head can do to a person AND their loved ones who are left to look after them. Charities like Headway were a godsend. I spent too much time in hospital with her seeing other head injury victims. Not nice.

I would like to add that this experience has made me reconsider the way I ride and ski/snowboard - ie I now take less risk. She is back riding again - and she has vowed never to not wear a lid.

I would always wear a helmet as I have cracked a few biking and doing snowsports - Its hardly an inconvenience and great for deflecting branches in the woods...

A bit of a ramble but anything which helps protect your head is not a bad idea.

To those who have avoided a serius knock to the head whilst not wearing a helmet - you were lucky. Think about your loved ones looking after you if the worst happens and how it would make them feel if a helmet would have prevented it.

enjoy riding

paul

It is a control for skin abrasion, which is bad enough, at least I doubt you'd choose to have you skin abrased, let alone your head smacked on a road. Although discussing this with you feels like smacking my head against a road.

If you seriously think you could get an ethics committee to pass a scientific test where someone crashes twice, one with a helmet and one without then you are beyond help. It would be like getting someone to get shot in the eye with a paintball gun wearing goggles and then not wearing goggles. It just wouldnt happen, you'd never get funding for such a ludicrous experiment. So in fact the comparrison can not be made, you just have to apply common sense, intuition and past accidents where people have and haven't been wearing safety equipment.

You do agree that you should wear goggles when paintballing don't you....!?

I really love the helmet threads

I find they're really entertaining too. You think they've exhausted all the possible permutations of the argument, and then suddenly they manage to pull some random guff like "helmets are like brakes no they're not yes they are shut up no you shut up" from out of leftfield and it all kicks off again. It's marvellous. 🙂

*opens popcorn*

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To those who have avoided a serius knock to the head whilst not wearing a helmet - you were lucky.

nope - its the other way round. The odds of getting a head injury is really low.

snowpaul - I recently took a head blow. I was concussed for 5 days and haven't been able to tolerate the loud play of my children since - All the annoying noises of this world - drilling, car alarms, etc, seem to really annoy me really quickly. Its like I've got less tolerance for these things now.

So in fact the comparrison can not be made, you just have to apply common sense, intuition and past accidents where people have and haven't been wearing safety equipment.

For once and for all, we're going to strap Olympus and TJ to two identical bikes and push them into a variety of identical crashes. After each one we'll dissect them to see what effect there was from wearing/ not wearing a helmet.

^Absolutley ****ing hilarious. Have to clean beer off my keyboard now^

I was killing myself on the train at that too! Sadly I'm too educated to take part even with a helmet as I'm fully aware I'm not invincible!

Paul, sorry to hear about your ordeal, hope things get as close back to normal as soon as possible!

[i]you just have to apply common sense, intuition and [/i] choose to ignore the actual evidence that is out there.

Helmets in cycling are one of the greatest marketing triumphs of all time; there is no consistent, duplicatable, reliable, information regarding their effectiveness despite their widespread use, yet just about everyone now assumes that you must have a polysterene hat to ride in or you face certain death.

Super.

Anyway, do carry on with the anecdotes...

nope - its the other way round. The odds of getting a head injury is really low.

No one is disputing the odds of head injury is low, but when it does happen it's serious. Its your HEAD TJ, its where your brain is supposed to be. Even a small risk is increased in stature should it have such catastrophic consequences. There are loads of things that are low risk that are still treated with respect due to their consequences.

So in fact the comparrison can not be made, you just have to apply common sense, intuition and past accidents where people have and haven't been wearing safety equipment.

OR you can do rigorous scientific analysis of past events to see what has happened

You quote me and then say "you can do rigorous scientific analysis of past events" which is what I said, past events are past accidents.

Crikey, my original post was that in my opinion from what I saw my mate's helmet did prevent him getting a head injury, so in this case I wouldn't say it was a marketing gimmic.

I wish you could delete threads that you'd created. I never expected so many people to so aggressively cling on to their misguided views. My whole point was I saw my mate's helmet do it's job, not if you don't wear one then I wish misery on you and your family and also that you don't enjoy christmas for the next 40 years. FFS.

not sure a helmet helps in this kind of situation -

but they all seem to wear them anyway, maybe its just to have something to strap the go-pro to

[i]I'm not trying to whip up another long pointless debate[/i]

Who was it who said this?

I've had concussion more times than I can remember.

/applause

(You can get various headband-type things to stick torches into...)

Olympus -

apply common sense, intuition

You are not "lucky" to avoid a head injury cycling - you are very very unlucky to sustain one. Its very rare.

Do you wear a helmet when drinking? Walking? playing football? Or far more likely to get you a head injury

A meteor might fall on your head

[IMG] [/IMG]

A decent summary of the various arguments and links to real data

http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=4688

"[i]If you seriously think you could get an ethics committee to pass a scientific test where someone crashes twice, one with a helmet and one without then you are beyond help.[/i]"

Of course not. (Though you could use instrumented dummies of course, or perhaps - less realistically - even cadavers.) Problem is that there are so many variables and a realistic impact is so massively complex and unrepeatable that it's not practicable anyway.

But the fact that you can't reasonably perform a control doesn't change the fact that without one, you are resorting to supposition.

"[i]So in fact the comparrison can not be made, you just have to apply common sense, intuition and past accidents where people have and haven't been wearing safety equipment.[/i]"

Indeed. So we agree. The problem is that common sense and intuition actually quite often turn out be wrong.

"[i]You do agree that you should wear goggles when paintballing don't you....!? [/i]"

Yes. But then where have I disagreed with the idea of wearing a helmet whilst cycling?

All I've argued against are (a) the assumption of what would have happened in any given incident had someone not been wearing a helmet, and (b) the idea that once you've had an incident, it gets used as evidence for relying on the safety equipment rather than as a stimulus to modify one's behaviour.

TJ if you're talking from a statistics point of view then yes it is rare, but as I said risk isn't just frequency its also linked to consequence.

I dont drink so no, and I've yet to get over 15 mph while walking or playing football so I doubt any head injury would be of any consequence.

And I'm not sure a helmet would protect you from a meteor strike.

You don't need to tell me about rigourous scientific analysis, I have enough experience in planning those.

I wish you could delete threads that you'd created. I never expected so many people to so aggressively cling on to their misguided views.

But you've been a member here for a good few months?

You are not "lucky" to avoid a head injury cycling - you are very very unlucky to sustain one. Its very rare. Do you wear a helmet when drinking? Walking? playing football? Or far more likely to get you a head injury

Evidence pls k thnx bye.