Dark large industrial estate roundabout where the speed limit is 40mpg on dual carriageways, I was driving, looking to my right at the car approaching the roundabout, I decided I had enough space to go (straight over the roundabout).
I didn't see him at all- my partner did (sat in the back) and said 'the cyclist'!- in one split second I turned the wheel to aim me over to the immediate left exit- it was VERY VERY close. Cyclist swore etc- I pulled in half a mile up the road and jumped out/waited for him and thoroughly apologised to him. Without the extra-wheel input he'd have been in my front wing (or infront of my offside headlight).
The SCARY thing is- he himself said 'he had loads of lights etc etc' and I just didn't see him. Shook me quite abit as I have upto date prescription glasses, I was well hydrated, alert and not tired.
If I had hit him, in the very least he'd have had life-changing injuries but to be honest I think it'd been terminal. Only two weeks earlier a cyclist was rear-ended mid-roundabout there. 🙁
If you are on here fella, please buy a lottery ticket.
Probably concentrating too much on the car
Not every accident is caused by someone looking at their phone, or not paying attention, or too old to be fully in control - sometimes, sh*t just happens. Glad this one had a happy ending.
Probably concentrating too much on the car
Yep
Take it as a lesson learnt.
We all occasionally make mistakes, luckily this time with no consequences.
At least you apologised, most people don't.
I applaud you Mark for stopping and apologising to him.
Well I didn't want to just drive off. I thought I owed him an apology for that. If it was a lesser potential incident I think I'd have hit the hazzards and raised my hand.
sometimes, sh*t just happens
No - his fault:
not paying attention,
When I read the title, and the op, I thought this thread was going to be about dogging. 😯
Just learn from it or let your partner drive seeing as they noticed
Possibly in your A pillar blind spot? People forget there's a huge great blockage there, stops you from seeing stuff if you are at the right trajectory/speed etc.
maybe sit your partner on the roof where she will have better visibility.
Good point, its a Citroen Picasso.
maybe sit your partner on the roof where she will have better visibility.
Shes wife number 1 so gets to sit in the back, wife number 2 and 3 don't leave the cellar 8)
Glad nobody got hurt. But have a look at this. It makes interesting reading. [url= http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/ ]http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/[/url]
possibly scanned too quickly thinking you could get across before the car & missed the cyclist, always worth taking the extra time & obeying the look left look right look left again mantra
Well done for apologising OP, this is an absolutely classic example of poor driving though. Why are people so desperate to go straight over a roundabout rather than slow down and take it safely? To save a few seconds? I see it loads and loads; It's what makes me really nervous about roundabouts (on my bike) to the extent I'll make detours to avoid them if possible.
A good time to trawl out this link again, should be required reading for all motorists (& cyclists!) [url= http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/ ]http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/[/url]
br />
EDIT: Beaten to it!!
[b][u]I totally agree[/u][/b]- these roundabouts are very quick flowing, even whilst you are on the roundabout people will pull out on you at speed.
(Trafford Park at evening rush hour if anyone knows them). Towards the Eccles end its at best organised madness.
Glad nobody got hurt. But have a look at this. It makes interesting reading. http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/
this is an excellent article - it should be taught to all drivers
Well done for apologising OP, this is an absolutely classic example of poor driving though. Why are people so desperate to go straight over a roundabout rather than slow down and take it safely?
So the OP was going too fast? He doesn't mention it in his post.
The first thing I thought of when I read the OP was that article linked above - almost a classic example of what it talks about - you didn't fail to see the cyclist because he wasn't lit up, or because you didn't look, but most probably because of the WAY you looked.
A comprehension test on that article should be a mandatory pass/fail element of all driving tests imo.
And respect for stopping and apologising etc.
Someone will be along to point out there are no such things as accidents!
Glad everyone is ok and you had the stones to pull over and apologies and come on here to say you made a mistake. Whatever the cause mistakes and accidents do happen. It is not always because someone is driving like a c0ck.
So the cyclist was on the roundabout and you were approaching it?
And you didn't see him?
This is why I avoid riding around big roundabouts at all costs, they are bloody lethal!
So the OP was going too fast? He doesn't mention it in his post.
He didn't make sure the roundabout was safe before entering it. Pretty sure that's in the Highway Code somewhere. 🙄 so, yes, he was going too fast
This is why I avoid riding around big roundabouts at all costs, they are bloody lethal!
This one does have a cycle lane on the path round it and for a mile+ eitherside in all directions. This is in no way a defence for me- I should STILL have seen him regardless.
Possibly in your A pillar blind spot?
^^^ This, I reckon
Easily done by any driver. Would have been your fault without a doubt, but no one is perfect 100% of the time.
As a cycle commuter who somtimes has to drive to work I'm very aware that no matter how well lit I am if I'm in a blind spot at the moment the driver looks my way, or if my lights get lost in the car headlights behind me, I may still get hit.
Fair play apologising to the guy, and also for posting up on here. I daresay that those who feel that they are without sin will be along to throw stones shortly.....
He didn't make sure the roundabout was safe before entering it. Pretty sure that's in the Highway Code somewhere. so, yes, he was going too fast
Clearly he didn't ensure the roundabout was safe before entering it but I think that it a different matter to his speed.
Hw could ensure its clear and enter at 40mph safely or could enter at 5mph and hit someone.
I wasn't trying to be awkward but you seem to be taking it that way so I will make this my last response.
This attitude is exactly why people walk away from court scot free after killing/maiming cyclists.Easily done by any driver. Would have been your fault without a doubt, but no one is perfect 100% of the time.
and I'm not trying to be awkward with you but you haven't read the OP properly. He clearly states his priority was going over the roundabout without having to slow down. So he was going too fast to look properly (or at all).I wasn't trying to be awkward but you seem to be taking it that way so I will make this my last response.
This is why I avoid riding around big roundabouts at all costs, they are bloody lethal!
My default is to just ride on the inside of the roundabout rather than the outside. You get side swiped on the outside of roundabouts by drivers who haven't seen you. You only get side swiped on the inside of roundabouts by drivers who haven't seen the roundabout.
I shudder when I see those cycle-paths following the outside perimeter of the roundabout, neatly feeding you into pretty much all entrance and exit traffic.
Them Roundabouts on Trafford Park are fast flowing with them having good views either side.
Sounds like Mark just concentrated on the car, possibly looking too far to the right judging its speed, and the cyclist was just unseen or covered, as previously said, by the A pillar.
Good on him for holding his Hands up and waiting for the guy.
Very easy to do if you give way, but dont necessarily stop at a junction or more likely roundabout (usually easier to see around).
I reckon if roundabouts and junctions actually had STOP signs+markings rather than GIVEWAY and they were enforced, maybe a few of these accidents would be avoided.
+1 for having the nuts to apologize.
Had a close shave this morning, driving to work in the murky dawn light, come up behind what I thought was a single cyclist with a small rear light.
Just as we're approaching a large puddle in the road another cyclist with no reflectives or lights who was riding directly in front of this guy suddenly appears and swings out 2/3rds of the way into the lane to avoid the puddle, didn't look, didn't indicate (not that I'd have seen it) it was only the glint of my headlights on the inner rim of his back wheel that allowed me to see him in time.
Proper heart in mouth moment, swerved and missed him by inches, if there'd been a 'solid' central island as there is for most of that road then it'd have been game over, I'd have never stopped in time in the wet.
Keep alert out there.
This is why I avoid riding around big roundabouts at all costs, they are bloody lethal!
Couldn't agree more. I avoid them like the plague. There is one on my commute which is unavoidable. A busy motorway sliproad/duel carriageway/A road intersection. I pull up before it, get off my bike and use the pedestrian crossings to get past it. I wouldn't even contemplate riding it, as its lane switching chaos. As are the ones on Trafford Park
Oh…. nearly forgot…..
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There is a lot of badly designed roundabouts out there. The design of many roundabouts allows cars to go virtually straight through without reducing speed. The correct design should require a sharp enough turn to mean vehicles need to slow to an appropriate speed. This allows drivers more time to check for traffic and also means if it goes wrong speeds are slower and consequences less serious.
Cyclists account for 15% of roundabout accidents despite being less than 2% of the traffic.
Excellent article from the fighter pilot. Good call to stop and apologise. An ex advanced instructor here and though I have fortunately not had any close misses with fellow cyclists recently I have had a near miss with a Pedestrian. This time of year, dimsey light, rain etc and everyones going too fast!
When Im on a roundabouts whilst cycling, I always assume cars which are waiting to join the roundabout haven't seen me and I expect them to pull out. Yes my right of way, but this reminds me of the phrase 'dead right'.
I sympathise with the OP, sounded like a terrible accident was narrowly avoided.
Bit like this then at 1 minute 10 seconds in, he really didnt even slow down AND HE DIDNT STOP EITHER.
Well done for apologising,perhaps it will make you more careful now.Alwys slow for roundabouts.
Possibly in your A pillar blind spot
How? The A pillars are at 10 and 1 o'clock.
Whatever the cause mistakes and accidents do happen. It is not always because someone is driving like a c0ck.
If there had been a collision here, you are saying it would have been an accident, i.e. no one's fault?
Zilog - I wasn't suggesting those who cause accidents shouldn't be punished. The fact is it only takes a moments inattention or distraction for a tragedy to happen, it could be any of us, which I would suggest is the point that hora might want us to take from his experience.
I spent several years in a previous career dealing with the unpleasant after effects of vehicle accidents, I don't take the subject lightly.
However, anyone who thinks they are the perfect driver 100% of the time needs to be aware that the sun shining out your backside may well be dazzling the driver behind.
If there had been a collision here, you are saying it would have been an accident, i.e. no one's fault?
FFS, not this again! The word "accident" does not mean, or imply, that no one was at fault, it means it was an unplanned, unintentional event. Look it up in a dictionary, look up the definition on the ROSPA website, or save yourself the bother and look it up on previous threads on here where it's all been gone through in unnecessary levels of detail.
I shudder when I see those cycle-paths following the outside perimeter of the roundabout, neatly feeding you into pretty much all entrance and exit traffic.
+1. I always use the same lane discipline as I would in the car, take the middle of the lane etc. This does take some cohones and the ability to accerelate to something approaching the speed of the traffic (20+mph) though. Oh and
When Im on a roundabouts whilst cycling, I always assume cars which are waiting to join the roundabout haven't seen me and I expect them to pull out.
On any roundabout with a fast approach and cars joining as I cross their entry to the roundabout, I'm looking STRAIGHT at them until I'm sure they've seen me and they are slowing to give way to me. Taking the lane helps with this and gives you a few feet of 'escape route' to your right should someone pull out.
This is why humans should not drive cars. A small mistake could mean someone elses life. The sooner the technology exists for them to be driven for us the better IMHO.
Agree roundabouts are very tricky for a cyclist and that you are better taking them close to the centre rather than the outside.
I wouldn't have called it an accident, it'd been negligence (light, judgement, observation) on my part that led to the collision.
An accident happens when its no ones fault IMO.
perhaps making the entry to a roundabout a mandatory stop would help?
i agree that approaching too fast severely limits the ability to properly assess the safety.
please note: 'too fast' does not necessarily mean 'speeding' imo, you can go too fast and still be within the legal speed limit.
A lot of hysterical replies here (The guy on about "can't wait for robots to drive us" - for real?!).
Shit happens. Can all be solved by everyone just slowing down. The OP. The guy in the car on the roundabout. And yes - sometimes cyclists too.
Everyone needs to just slow the **** down and chill out. Take your time. Life's short - but it's not that short.
An accident happens when its no ones fault IMO.
The thing with language is, it doesn't really work "imo", you need to share and agree what words mean, otherwise it doesn't work as a means of communication. If I say the word "beef" but I'm using it to mean what you consider falls under the meaning of the word "pork" then there's going to be problems.
Thankfully we have dictionaries and suchlike where the generally accepted meanings of words are detailed so that such problems can be avoided. They define the word "accident" to have a particular meaning, and that meaning doesn't include or imply that no-one is at fault or that it couldn't be avoided. You have to use a phrase, such as "unforseeable accident" or "unavoidable accident". You can't just change the meaning of the word "accident" by using it mean something different then putting "imo"
You're just right (by the way, I have decided to use the word "right" to mean what the dictionary might tell you is the meaning of the word "wrong". It's what the word means now, in my opinion).
plyphon - MemberEveryone needs to just slow the **** down and chill out. Take your time. Life's short - but it's not that short.
My father used to say to me when I first started driving "it's better to be later than late". Took me a while to understand what he meant.
Anyway Hora, another lesson learnt from the university of experiences, eh?!
Edlong -I guess my point is that "accident" is an inappropriate word in this context (an argument which I think has some support).
perhaps making the entry to a roundabout a mandatory stop would help?
How could that possibly be enforced? The traffic police in this country now consists entirely of a series of yellow boxes, taking photos of people speeding. They can't even offer a deterrent to people driving along gabbing away on their phones
I remember once pulling away from a Volvo V70 only for him to slowly pull alongside me at every lights. Couldn't shake the bugger off. In an urban setting its absolutely pointless driving at an speed IMO- even if you beat a amber light, you'll get stopped by the next or make a whole 30seconds on your total journey. Pointless.
Its amazing how understanding many people seem to be on this thread in a typical SMIDSY situation. The driver clearly wasn't paying attention.
Had this been the usual close call cyclists version of events there would be all sorts of death threats/door kicking/mirror removal posts.
Wasn't the reason RTAs (Road Traffic Accidents) were renamed RTIs (Road Traffic Incidents) something to do with the no-fault=accident thing?
Either way, I doubt very many of the RTIs that happen are deliberate and calcualted so the earlier definition of accident should be sound...
Its amazing how understanding many people seem to be on this thread in a typical SMIDSY situation. The driver clearly wasn't paying attention.
Not that amazing really, most of us are drivers, most of us can empathise. Unfortunately most of us are also wrong and some even end up on juries that aquit drivers of SMIDSYs that result in KSIs.
Wasn't the reason RTAs (Road Traffic Accidents) were renamed RTIs (Road Traffic Incidents) something to do with the no-fault=accident thing?
I'd have thought it would have changed to Incident, so that it covers intentional events such as road-rage too.
Ah. Thanks Ian.
Everyone needs to just slow the **** down and chill out.
You mean cycle or walk? Even a car hitting you at 20mph is still going to hurt you somewhat. And what speed is correct, if you miss thing then what you think is too slow may actually be too fast? If you haven't seen someone doesn't always mean you will see them if you are moving even slower.
Sorry, that just stinks of "I'm a good driver and everyone drives too quick which is why accidents happen". And I think the point of this thread is that crashes/accidents happen even if you are a good driver and think you are paying attention. People make mistakes.
And yes, computers driving will be for real - like stopping us from skidding or plowing into the back of a car while on the motorway. Hardly hysterical!
Mind you, about 10 people a day die on the roads. Let not get hysterical, but I do suggest some value should be placed on human life? No?
Yep, a roundabout near me was the closest I've been to shuffling off this mortal coil. Completely open roundabout, no other cars, broad daylight, me dressed in high vis top as I watched the guy enter the roundabout at about 40/50mph about 5 feet in front of me. Thankfully the spidersense kicked in a few seconds before and I assumed he hadn't seen me and slowed down.
At least he saw me out of the side window of the car judging by the look of shock/horror on his face...
[i]Not that amazing really, most of us are drivers, most of us can empathise[/i]
I know that, just not normally the case when a cyclist post on here with a near miss story.
Its amazing how understanding many people seem to be on this thread in a typical SMIDSY situation. The driver clearly wasn't paying attention.
Not that amazing really, most of us are drivers, most of us can empathise.
The same empathy juries can have for drivers that kill or injure others that helps lead to sentences / less serious charges brought that are seen as too lenient to be a deterrent against poor driving. With all due respect to the OP, there's a need to be consistent; if we want RTI sentencing that protects us we have to accept the boot if it's on the other foot. And I say that as someone who came scarily close to taking out a motorbike in town a few years ago, different situation but same basic driver fault. It does happen but it's preventable, or at least the number of mistakes should be lower.
Dark large industrial estate roundabout where the speed limit is 40mpg on dual carriageways, I was driving, looking to my right at the car approaching the roundabout, I decided I had enough space to go (straight over the roundabout).I didn't see him at all- my partner did (sat in the back) and said 'the cyclist'!- in one split second I turned the wheel to aim me over to the immediate left exit- it was VERY VERY close. Cyclist swore etc- I pulled in half a mile up the road and jumped out/waited for him and thoroughly apologised to him. Without the extra-wheel input he'd have been in my front wing (or infront of my offside headlight).
The SCARY thing is- he himself said 'he had loads of lights etc etc' and I just didn't see him. Shook me quite abit as I have upto date prescription glasses, I was well hydrated, alert and not tired.
If I had hit him, in the very least he'd have had life-changing injuries but to be honest I think it'd been terminal. Only two weeks earlier a cyclist was rear-ended mid-roundabout there.
If you are on here fella, please buy a lottery ticket.
This has happened to me whilst driving a small low sports car. Twice, several years apart I pulled out when there was a another car approaching. Both times being close to a collision but "I didn't see" the other vehicle coming on either occasion.
Then I had the good fortune to read this. [url= http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/ ]RAF Pilot[/url]
It made complete sense to me & changed the way I look for other road users. Have a look & see what you think.
D.
@ binners:
it is, of course, practicably unenforcable.
You mean cycle or walk? Even a car hitting you at 20mph is still going to hurt you somewhat. And what speed is correct, if you miss thing then what you think is too slow may actually be too fast? If you haven't seen someone doesn't always mean you will see them if you are moving even slower.Sorry, that just stinks of "I'm a good driver and everyone drives too quick which is why accidents happen". And I think the point of this thread is that crashes/accidents happen even if you are a good driver and think you are paying attention. People make mistakes.
And yes, computers driving will be for real - like stopping us from skidding or plowing into the back of a car while on the motorway. Hardly hysterical!
Mind you, about 10 people a day die on the roads. Let not get hysterical, but I do suggest some value should be placed on human life? No?
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fundamental issue with road design is the desire to keep the traffic flowing. Roundabouts, in particular big fast complicated ones are simply accidents waiting to happen. Roundabout near me was redesigned a few years ago and a cyclist was killed within days of its opening. Reason, it is crap, the lane design in and out is unquestionably appalling, in fact I would go on record as saying whoever at Gloucestershire County Council who was responsible for the design should be put on trial for manslaughter.
This does not detract from drivers actually having to look, then again if you think about driving tests and making progress, you could argue the whole system places keeping the traffic flowing above the safety of traffic!
The same empathy juries can have for drivers that kill or injure others that helps lead to sentences / less serious charges brought that are seen as too lenient to be a deterrent against poor driving. With all due respect to the OP, there's a need to be consistent; if we want RTI sentencing that protects us we have to accept the boot if it's on the other foot. And I say that as someone who came scarily close to taking out a motorbike in town a few years ago, different situation but same basic driver fault. It does happen but it's preventable, or at least the number of mistakes should be lower.
Thought I would like to this
[url= http://road.cc/content/news/105570-1-10-london-cycling-deaths-result-driver-being-jailed-says-evening-standard ]http://road.cc/content/news/105570-1-10-london-cycling-deaths-result-driver-being-jailed-says-evening-standard[/url]
90% of drivers who kill someone walk away!
Were the cyclists lights solid or flashing?
I think the op should be taken out and shot.
[url= http://www.****/news/article-2533183/Cyclists-miraculous-escape-knocked-pinned-underneath-car-walks-away-just-cuts-bruises.html ]Errrm, how close was close?[/url]
WHHOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
didn't realise the Dailymail blockage on links, but fair do's (a pal was reading it a work, you understand....)
Were the cyclists lights solid or flashing?
Mind you, about 10 people a day die on the roads. Let not get hysterical, but I do suggest some value should be placed on human life? No?
Less than 5 a day actually. 1754 deaths in 2012. The lowest number ever. So while there is plenty scope for dealing better with bad driving and for better road design the roads are safer than they have ever been.
but I do suggest some value should be placed on human life? No?
According to my (slightly rusty) memory, the Dept. for Transport economists calculated it as about £1.5million. Interestingly most of this was due to the distress of the victims family and friends, rather than the specific economic value of the remains of the victims life/emergency services costs.
Less than 5 a day actually. 1754 deaths in 2012. The lowest number ever. So while there is plenty scope for dealing better with bad driving and for better road design the roads are safer than they have ever been.
BUT, are roads safer?
[url] http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-pedestrian-deaths-and-cycle-injuries-soar-7899270.html [/url]
Overall deaths may be down, but there are many ways to achieve that, you can make the roads safer or you can remove road users. Is the increase in cycling and the increase in deaths in London a reflection that the reason why deaths have been falling is because vulnerable road users have not been using the roads?
Look at long term trends, car use up, walking and cycling down. deaths of car users down, deaths amongst vulnerable users down, but not so much on a per mile basis.
On the lights- I don't think they were flashing. He was wearing a orange altura jacket too but even when I was stood at the side of the road waiting it blended in/a grey shape. I've seen decent high-beam lights. Even in the corner of your vision you can't miss them.
Is the increase in cycling and the increase in deaths in London a reflection that the reason why deaths have been falling is because vulnerable road users have not been using the roads?
There isn't an increase in cycling deaths in London. The 1993-2012 average is around 15 deaths per year. So 2013 was a typical year despite increased numbers of cyclists. The 1993-2013 fatality rate is an overall downward trend albeit with some blips.
http://fullfact.org/factchecks/londons_cyclists_road_deaths-29281
