[Closed] Shand Stoater as a road bike - anyone?

Going through the same process - looking at the Vissago Donnybrook from Charlie, cotic escapade and singular Kite.

For a Shand I'd probably go Stooshie if I wanted discs and it was mostly for road.

tesco will do you a 28 month 0% credit card...

Picking up a custom Stoater frame for the Mrs next week... So can't add anything sensible at this stage!! It'll be an all-round road bike in due course. I can't see any reason why one of these wouldn't match your needs perfectly.
There may be cheaper options out there. But better? I doubt it.

I'm tempted by a Stooshie for more road orientated stuff too.

There may be cheaper options out there. But better? I doubt it.

One is very easy to determine, the other is highly subjective! 🙂

There are a lot of options out there just now for the class of road bike you are describing. My commuting/touring/Audax road bike is built around a Kinesis Pro 6 frame.
I personally wouldn't go steel, because every steel bike I've owned has ended up rusting with the normal wear and tear of winter commuting. That might not be a problem if you are not using the bike in that way.

Similarly you've got the Mason bikes. If you were to look at Alu bikes then there's Bowman too.

Wouldn't be a commuter. My 12 year old Soul has coped very well after years of wet and neglect so rust isn't a concern.

Alternatives also on the list are Kinesis 4S disc in aluminium, GF Ti, 18 Bikes Monsal, or maybe something plastic like a Diverge or the new Focus Paralane. And there is also the Stooshie for a firmer and more expensive ride.

The more I look the more choice there is. But only the Stoater has got me genuinely "I want one of those". But I don't want/need it as a gravel bike which closer to where it is pitched.

Just been to Swift Cycles in London and seen their Fairlight bikes that are about to come out.

Designed by an ex Genesis guy, they have the Faron which is like a croix de fer and the Strael, which is 853 and road/audaxy.

[img] [/img]

Seemed quite impressive, shaped 853 tubes, two lengths of headtube for different fits, rack and mudguard mounts, etc. The skinny tubes looked a little funny next to that headtube I thought.

Use Hunt wheels on the Ultegra build.

Their facebook page is a typical attempt at generating internet fervour and they are emphasising their 'European-ness' :

but the guys at Swift Cycles are really nice and seem to know their stuff. Bikes over £1200 get a free retul fit I think.

Frames will be coming into the country in 2 to 3 weeks so I am going back to have a closer look.

Similarly you've got the Mason bikes. If you were to look at Alu bikes then there's Bowman too.

Mason do steel, alu and Ti. I have the alu Definition and think it's bloomin lovely. I've used it with guards and rack for touring, audaxes, through to fast sportives and it's felt perfectly suited at all times.

Don't forget Wold

TurnerGuy they really need to get those tri bars off that bike!

That wheelie bin hanging off the back of the saddle doesn't do it any favours either 😆

I would certainly be looking at Mason. How about Donhou DS2?

I think it was be prepped for this guy on the trans continental, so to give alternate ride positions :

[img] [/img]

the wheelie bins looks to have been left behind though.

Can't believe nobody has mentioned geometry. That Shand as a very nice-but-dull 70-71 degree head angle. OF course you can ride it on the road, but... it will handle like the touring bike it is designed to be. For a proper road experience you really want something with sharper handling. Look for 72.5 or 73 degree head angle. A 73 degree parallel design is an excellent handling road bike. You should be able to fit a rack if needed.

Even for Audax riding, I would go for something sharper. I do, however love the flex of steel.

I use a Singular Peregrine as my road bike. Wouldn't want to say it's ideal, and it's certainly not light for a roadbike. But I pedal and it goes forward. Done plenty of long rides inc a 100miler at 20mph average (Ride100, so cheating!) If I was racing, or joining a road club, I'd want to be getting something more like a proper road bike. Anything other than that, I'd be happy to stick with the Peregrine. Although lifting a mate's Ti enigma at the weekend did make me think... - must not do that again!

just did some light googling. Some weights from Mr Shand:

Stoater, 105 triple, XT wheels (no saddle/pedals) : 10Kg
Stoater, 105 double, XT Wheels, Hope V-twin brakes (no saddle/pedals) : 10.4kg
Stoater FT, XT, wheelsmith Race23 wheels : 10.8kg
Stoater, Chorus, King/Archetypes, Thompson finishing kit, Spyre SLC : 9.5kg

Edit: Ha! Next post down was from you, OP!

Can't believe nobody has mentioned geometry. That Shand as a very nice-but-dull 70-71 degree head angle. OF course you can ride it on the road, but... it will handle like the touring bike it is designed to be.

My Mason is way sharper than my Thorn, despite having the same head angle.

didn't think the Donhou took guards, now I hardly dare look.

I'll be the extremely over excited guy at the Bike Show on Saturday, btw 😉

I've got a stoater and I'd say it's at the gravelly/touring end of the spectrum, if you're looking to use it almost exclusively on the road. But it is very nice and I can keep up on road rides, despite a 'bit' of a weight penalty when climbing against the carbon bunch. Not sure what the current iteration is like but if buying discs these days I'd definitely go for thru-bolts not QR. And whatever brake mount is now standard... Loads of exciting bikes out there.

How about a Ti bike from Enigma?

they have a sale on at the moment

My Mason is way sharper than my Thorn, despite having the same head angle.

Drop bars, disc brakes, mudguard and rack mounts, clearance for 28mm tyres or bigger, possibly dynamo lighting. More audax than sportive, but still the occasional club run as well.

Sounds like an ideal mix for a bike like that. The 2 smallest sizes are 70 deg but with loads of fork offset. The other sizes are 71.5 / 45mm. Not razor sharp by any standards but plenty of gravel bikes use that geometry, works well on the 28-35C tyre range. Personally I don't like 73 deg race bike handling that much, imo can feel too twitchy outside of fast bunch riding use and no real need for a bike to be so light steering on average UK roads. Back it off a degree and it feels far better to me on long rides or at 45mph on local hills.
I'm a massive fan of all-steel bikes like the Stoater than can do a bit more than just road miles. For a steel frameset it's a really good weight too. Best bit is that you could get a 72 deg HA if you wanted with everything else about the same.
ie yes, I would buy one : )

Sounds like an ideal mix for a bike like that.

Yeah, but what do you know about bike design..... 😉

Not much, I can't actually cut the tubes and braze/weld them : )

I like this... looks really nice to ride, yes maybe a little slack for hard hacking, but I can imagine doing many many miles on one. The Stoater..
[img] [/img]

And, cooooweeeee... this looks bloody lovely too... again, a bike for many miles and smiles...
The Stooshie..
[img] [/img]

I dont envy your decision making one bit... 😆

But as mentioned above, there's also this... 🙂

[img] ?1430468818[/img]
Mason Resolution

But I can get the Stoater/Stooshie with a dynohub for the price of the Mason.

Or I could get the Paralane on interest free credit at the LBS.

Or I could get a 4SDisc and save £1000. And always think "what if...." every time I rode it.

Tom Sturdy (custom builder) did this project for himself. Race geo, discs and clearance for big tyres. Looks a riot!
[IMG] [/IMG]

Not sure I need race geometry - most people who see me in my Greggs cycle jersey think it's a genuine sponsorship deal, given what lies beneath....

Blimey, that Tom Sturdy build is Awesumnez.

That has got me thinking..

Kerching!

Can't believe nobody has mentioned geometry. That Shand as a very nice-but-dull 70-71 degree head angle. OF course you can ride it on the road, but... it will handle like the touring bike it is designed to be. For a proper road experience you really want something with sharper handling. Look for 72.5 or 73 degree head angle. A 73 degree parallel design is an excellent handling road bike. You should be able to fit a rack if needed.

Even for Audax riding, I would go for something sharper. I do, however love the flex of stee

Not trying to provoke and argument

Does "sharp" handling actually let you do anything that dull handling doesn't. Do you get there faster? Or is just a preference thing

Bowman Pilgrim??

Looks to be in the right place, and a nice place to be...

[img] [/img]

That will be the trail of the forks and possibly the wheelbase. 70 degrees is very slack for a bike for "road" riding. It will be nice to ride, of course, but there have been quite a few comments on here about how their [insert bramd here] all purpose road bike felt dull.

I can only go by how my bikes feel. I had a Wilier with 73 deg parallel geometry which felt really stable but fun to ride; the Mason is similar to ride but on paper looks quite different.

[img] [/img]

Nah, this. Somewhere for the lunchbox is a bonus.
[IMG] [/IMG]

A 73 degree parallel design is an excellent handling road bike.

+100.

Very few out there, but 73 parallels ride like motorbikes. Stable, nimble, perfect...

I have a stooshie. It may well be the best bike I have event owned. I've raced cyclocross, commuted and done long road rides on it. If I had only one bike, this would be it without doubt.

Buy it, buy it, buy it.

Nothing to add other than an arty pic of my shand. I love it
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My paddy wagon is also 73 degrees parallel. It is the best handling bike I have for the road. M oss to ride another 125km on it tomorrow morning. I do rather like orange bikes though 😀

Lots of lovely bikes there do like the look of the Shands. Don't forget you can always go custom build if you want something specific for potentially not a lot more cash...

http://www.vernonbarkercycles.co.uk/frame_building.html

http://www.shop.18bikes.co.uk/m5b0s578p2173/EIGHTEEN-Custom-Frame-2014

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This is my Stooshie, I am really happy with it. I had it custom made as I need a long top tube, it handles really well

ampthill - Member
Does "sharp" handling actually let you do anything that dull handling doesn't. Do you get there faster? Or is just a preference thing

No, but it does it better.

One place where it really does matter is when you're climbing steep stuff. A sharp handling bike won't be flopping all over the place, and on the following fast descent won't be scaring you with unpredictable weaves or slow response. And it will go round a fast corner on exactly the line you chose.

When I was a lad, 73º HAs were usually found on fixed bikes, and 72º for general sports and race bikes. Check the angle on Nervex Pro lugs, and they were usually specified as 72º parallel (it's often stamped on the rhs of the seat lug).

That said, where you put your weight on the bike does make a difference to how a bike handles. That's one reason there has been such a wide range of geometries used over the years.

My current N+1 would be this

[img] [/img]

firestarter - Member
Nothing to add other than an arty pic of my shand. I love it

Cheers epicyclo sadly it looks less arty most of the time lol
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I suspect that Steven Shand is reading this thread and simultaneously banging his head against the wall while restraining himself from posting.

When I have had a custom steel frame built, I have never told the builder what angles I want. I have told them what I was going to use the bike for and what I was looking for from the bike in terms of feel and handling, and relied on their skill and expertise to choose tubes and geometry etc. to deliver that. I have not been disappointed: my steel bikes are my favourites over and above high end off-the-shelf carbon and titanium, and I have no idea what their angles are - I just ride them.

With regard to the off-the-shelf Stoater's slack head angle, this angle is part of a complete design package, which was doubtless arrived at as optimal for that particular frame size for >90% of riders. As well as for handling appropriate for the bike and type of riding/terrain for which it was developed (in conjunction with the rest of the geometry), the head angle has probably been chosen to maximise mudguard and tyre clearance (more important given that the Stoater will likely be used with large tyres and/or off road where low speed manoeuvres would be more likely to cause toe strikes).

That Shand as a very nice-but-dull 70-71 degree head angle. OF course you can ride it on the road, but... it will handle like the touring bike it is designed to be. For a proper road experience you really want something with sharper handling. Look for 72.5 or 73 degree head angle. A 73 degree parallel design is an excellent handling road bike. You should be able to fit a rack if needed.

Even for Audax riding, I would go for something sharper. I do, however love the flex of steel.

Colnagos have head angles as low as 70-71 degrees, and that does not appear to have impeded their success commercially and in races. Their handling is often described as very stable and neutral, especially at high speed, qualities which may also be desirable in an audax bike.

Morecashthandash, you have already specified your design brief, and the Stoater does sound a very close fit to your requirements. However, the advantage of going to a good quality UK frame builder like Shand, is that you can discuss what you want from the frame and bike with him, and if necessary/appropriate you can go for a custom build.

Just got the feeling that my heart may be ruling my head, there are cheaper options out there.

The right bike, and the one that is best [u]value[/u], is the one that you makes you want to ride, and you are probably more likely to be confident of getting that from the likes of Shand.

Thanks for the responses folks. I'll try and test a few 73 degree bikes

I have a stooshie. It may well be the best bike I have event owned. I've raced cyclocross, commuted and done long road rides on it. If I had only one bike, this would be it without doubt.

I currently have a Boardman CX and a Genesis Equlibrium for road/winter/commute stuff. I was wondering if a Stoater would do all the above that the Genesis does plus the odd CX, so I can drop to only 1 bike to do it all. It sounds like it will, but I didn't assume the Stooshie would, but it would appear I'm wrong. 😳

How much tyre clearance is there on the stooshie? will it take CX tyres easily?

What about a Condor Fratello Disc? davidtaylforth off here has one and has posted pics in a thread called "has anyone got a fratello" have a look, loads of info in there about his quest for a steel disc roadie.

And his is really nice.

This pics just off Road.cc

[img] [/img]

Mr Shand had not seen this thread when I spoke to him at the Cycle Show a couple of hours ago - and judging by the crowds when we left he isn't going to be looking at it any time soon.

I've kind of narrowed it down to a Shand - and he suggested the Stoater over the Stooshie - or a Condor Fratello Disc as above, which looks far more attractive in real life than that picture does it credit.

And I have a feeling I may know who started that "anyone have a Fratello" thread..... 😳

😆

Ha! You've been looking for a while then 😆

BOL, post pics when you decide..

😆

Just checked, and it was me that started that thread. I don't like to rush into these things.

Just discovered the custom paint options on the Condor site 🙄

Yeh, the Conndors are alright. 73/73 angles on mine FWIW. Sometimes I ride it and feel I should have gone for a 5-10mm longer TT though. If I was to pick fault in it, it's the lack of a carbon steerer on the forks. Do like the look of those Shands; not so keen on that Ritchey, bolt through axles are not necessary in my opinion. Have never had any issue with the QRs on my bike.

[img] [/img]

I have nano 40s in the stooshie at the mo. If I needed more mud clearance I'd fit a 35mm or even a uci legal tyre...

Sorry for going a little off topic, but @ [b]davidtaylforth[/b] what are those bars? Cheers

Just gone through my photos I took at the show and had completely forgotten about the blinged up Mason (on the Hope stand, I think.)

The Shand handlebars were really nice, just a little flare from lower down the drops compared to most flared bars. Worth a punt for £34 according to the website.

Ritchey Neo Classic

I have nano 40s in the stooshie at the mo. If I needed more mud clearance I'd fit a 35mm or even a uci legal tyre

That's much bigger than I expected

Ta

Seems like the front upper rack mount has become the default place to attach the front mud guard but I wish there was a prettier spot 🙁

Lovely thanks pal.

This thread has some gorgeous bikes! Almost regret selling my last road bike...

[...]about the blinged up Mason (on the Hope stand, I think.)[...]

Mason Bokeh? [url= https://masoncycles.cc/blog/adventuresport-the-development-of-bokeh ]Linky- due soon.[/url]

That bokeh is a good chunk of money.

Not convinced at all about the need for those thru axles on these bikes, DT Swiss 9mm and 10 RWS skewers and convertable hubs give a pretty secure connection into standard (legacy) dropouts.

No, the Mason was the Resolution. Looked great, but a chunk more than I'm prepared to step up to pay for.

Fairy nuff.
(The Ti Bokeh is indeed a big ticket item; interested in the 'basic' one)