[Closed] 650b - feel alittle underwhelmed

i havent liked any i have tried. they dont feel right. in fact i have bought a new 26 fs frame 🙂 🙂

same tyres, rims, spokes, hubs and the rest?

Hope/Stans rear - Check.
Ardent rear - Check

Front - changed to a Superstar with Hans Dampf (Maxxis dont do 650b Beavers in 2.25) 🙁

Its gone from slack/low to tall/ungainly

I might park the 650b wheels for abit and refit with 2.4's Maxxis instead of 2.25's on the 26's

the beaver to hans dampf is a bit of a change.

I stuck 650b wheels in my Blur LTc felt slightly high but fine, no drop in zing but my zingomiter might need calibrating.

Which wheels did you go for, flex or arch?

My 26 XC bike got nicked, at the time it was very obvious they were being made obsolete so I bought a 29er. It's taken me 2 years to get to the point where I feel confident ragging it without that unwieldy floppy wheel feeling.

The zing was probably flattened by the weight of expectation 🙂

Give it at least a few more goes, may just be a case of getting used to the differences to give a better basis for comparison

I had the same, broke my 29'er frame, got lent a 650b version of the exactly same bike, rode it, didn't like it. In fact my old Cove Handjob was a far better ride than the 650b HT

Was on Flow front, Arch rear.

Now on SS Tactic front, Arch rear.

BTW the Tactic rim is hateful. You can put on/remove Maxxis on Stans with 99% of the time finger/pressure.

Tactics? THREE tyre levers = old school style tyre changes.

Expectation- yes I was hoping for 'wow'. Yes the wheels do pick up speed but it feels slugging/shit basically for the fun bits that arent straight blasting.

Now the 'born in the US' stories make alot of sense? Wasnt the bigger wheels started in the US market where mountain biking for the masses is different?

Forget your can I squeeze 650B into my 26" frame niche, this IS the new niche, Hora in good and early, buying 650B frames to put 26" wheels in! Accelerate like lightning and carve like demons. 😀 Anyone tried 650B wheels in a 29er frame? Oh wait, that's next's years niche, it's just they're also using slightly bigger tyres!

Jedi - what frame have you bought? Were you still running the Bottlerocket?

Is this the beginning of the end for hora's Commencal?

of course it bloody well is.

bought a saracen 16x . no more bottlerocket

No its 650b folly wheels hung in the shed.

I doubt any other 650b frame will be better. I really like the V4 alot.

Now the 'born in the US' stories make alot of sense? Wasnt the bigger wheels started in the US market where mountain biking for the masses is different?

Basing it on a couple of rides on a single frame that you have changed from how it was originally set up it's a bit of a bold statement - especially as the variables of rims and rubber has changed.

I'll give it one more ride

hope it works out because with a sales pitch of pedal strike on 26" and slow and laggy on 650b it's going to be a hard sell 😉

Basing it on a couple of rides on a single frame that you have changed from how it was originally set up it's a bit of a bold statement

Are you somehow unfamiliar with Hora's work? He can fully analyse, then condemn any frame/set of forks/wheels/goupset as rubbish with a mere jaunt round a car park.

Classifieds by Monday

[b]NEXT!!!!![/b].....

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Run a 650b frame with 26" wheels and its super low and rails like a demon. Might be something to do with the fun feeling before (but of course beware pedal strikes).

I bought a Canyon Strive a while back. Loved it. Then realised they'd fitted the wrong shock (too short i2i). Got the right length shock fitted and it was never the same. Guess in my case I was lower and slacker but you get my point.

last year I bought an 650b steel HT frame, 2souls 41.5 evo
because I have an 2souls QH 29" and its brilliant
used it with 26"wheels, was "ok"..but felt a bit long and too many pedal strikes !! awful
rode it 4 weeks with 650b wheels..
forced myself to get it,...no way..it never felt right
went back to my old rigs 26" and 29" 😀
and sold the frame !

Big lolz from me

Am I right in thinking you have replaced the shock already too ?

Seriously hora stick with it.

Lol.

I found 650b slower to accelerate ,but a bit more stable feeling when up to speed. There is a definite but small detectable difference between the two, but nothing I couldn't get used to.

One isn't better than the other ,just different.

most predictable thread of the year.

I concur with Julians, there is a small but appreciable difference - however - they aren't unwieldy. I reckon you've just become used to riding with a really low BB, Hora.

Ah my evil parallel universe twin has entered the topic

My slack 26er is less weildy than the more xc biased 650b I rode a couple of weeks back! So it's more than just wheel size imo

i suppose i can't really comment, i'm (quite happily) still on 26".
but i suspect my next bike will be 27.5", and i did quite like the feel of the bronson i had a quick lap of dalby on late last year...
where were you riding today? photos on fb looked a bit like the beast?

You're over-thinking it. Worry about the ride not the bike and in a month when you've had time to adapt, you can swap back and see how you feel.

From hora on a previous thread .......

Im a serial frame swapper.
I own a V4.
You can buy mine in 2016 or 2017 if you can wait OP?

Looks like it isn't going to last that long.

where were you riding today? photos on fb looked a bit like the beast?

Do you know anywhere else he rides?

Apparentley the wheels were so unwieldy that it led to a snapped dropper post today also, curse of the 650b

I bought a medium Commencal AM V4 after trying out another of this parish's and liking it. I run mine with a 55mm Easton stem and 780mm bars.

No one mentioned biscuits yet?
😆

Mikesmith it was good but subsequently with 26'er wheels it rocked. Knowing the difference exists is what prompted the disapointment.

I dont want to adapt to it. It feels better with 26'er wheels. If I'd never have done it this way round I'd have never know.. I'll give it another ride but it aint low n slack feeling anymore.

I remember pedal strikes on my old blur4x so it aint no biggy 8)

Although I cant ride for toffee its funny that someone who can actually ride posted in favour of 26'ers on the first reply 😆

Why would you expect "wow" from a slightly larger wheel? The difference it makes is obvious - slightly higher bottom bracket, rolls over things a bit better, actually feels slacker due to increased trail (and gyroscopics). That what you've got - except you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between slackness and lowness.

Sounds like you should have bought a 27.5 frame with a lower BB. 😛

Hora, why are you riding with 26 footer wheels? Surely you mean 26" wheels? The marketing has 26", 650b and 29er...are you sure you are riding the right anything as you aren't following conventional terminology...
😉

I agree with the op. I run a 26 and 650b. 650 feels sluggish in comparison with similar builds. I would love to try a 26 with the long, low slack 'modern geometry'. Still no point moaning it's all about 650b+ now eh?

These people who are not liking 650b, what do they think to 29er? Just curious as everything I ride is 26".

I've got both a 26" (170mm suspension) and a 650b (140mm suspension) full sus bike - I spent the last couple of rides trying to get my 26" bike feeling as lively and spritely as my 650b. It was feeling sluggish and dead over jumps and rough stuff. I'm off the the alps with the 26" and wanted to get used to it beforehand.

After some tinkering of the suspension I've managed to get it feeling similar - although I prefer my 650b on steeper technical trails or over jumps at the moment. Still gonna take the 26" bike to the alps though and sure I'll get used to it.

I don't really notice much between the wheel sizes personally - although I rode a 29" Carbon stumpjumper in South Africa a couple of times a few months back and I did notice the difference, especially on tight twisty singletrack - but put that down to being used to less gyroscopic force.

Keep at it Hora - you should find the sweet spot.

I prefer my new 650B full sus to my newish 29er full sus.

But then it was twice the price and more than 5lbs lighter.

Maybe you just bought the wrong bike

I dont like 29'ers. Bushwacked what tinkering did you do?

Ive slowed both rebounds down.

Run more sag in both or run my sag in the shock?

On my 26" (Scott Voltage) I've sped up the rebound on the rear (Bos Vipr) and used some recommended settings (j-tech) on the front (Zocchi 55ti's). Haven't touched the sag as this was set right already - you might need to check it with the new wheels but should still be OK.

Started to feel as fun to ride as my Canyon Spectral.

I prefer my bikes that work...

My 29r is a ripping XC bike, the bigger wheels help with momentum and roll, love it.
My 26" AM bike works really well.

Ridden a few 650b bikes, really struggle to put the wheels as the difference. Know plenty that have transitioned from 26 to 650 and none are picking up on the tiny difference in roll etc. most are ripping it up, and enjoying the new bikes.

I dont want to adapt to it. It feels better with 26'er wheels. If I'd never have done it this way round I'd have never know.. I'll give it another ride but it aint low n slack feeling anymore.

After some tinkering of the suspension I've managed to get it feeling similar - although I prefer my 650b on steeper technical trails or over jumps at the moment. Still gonna take the 26" bike to the alps though and sure I'll get used to it.

That's a good idea, because 650b wheels won't make up for a loss of more than an inch in travel.

Hmmm. Have had 29ers that have been brilliant and others which were a bit meh. Same with 26". I don't think it's a wheel size thing...i just reckon some bikes set up well (and easily) for what a rider is looking for and others not so much... I remember buying a Niner MCR that I really wanted to love... Never happened for me! Am currently on a 27.5 Nicolai which seems ace... But probably not because of the wheel diameter.

.i just reckon some bikes set up well (and easily) for what a rider is looking for and others not so much

For example
29'rs
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[img] [/img]
all the same really

I was just looking at hora's bike the other day and thinking how sorted it looked. In fact, I almost posted something like "Mate, that looks like a really sorted bike that looks all proper and not a monstrous shambles of ill-judged random tinkering to failure like that wretched Planet-X roadbike you had yeah?".

But I thought that was maybe a bit patronising. Anyhoo.....

😉

I dont want to adapt to it. It feels better with 26'er wheels

In all seriousness, I'm not doubting the authenticity of your lived experience and all, but I find it very difficult to believe that after a good few rides of "adapting" to it/not obsessing about it you would be able to detect any serious difference.

I went 26" -> 29er -> 650b over 3 years (all fairly slack, mid-travel hardtails)

The 29er feels genuinely different from either the 26" or the 650b. The difference between 26" and 650b is really not all that great.

🙂

Bigdummy thats a pic with 26'er wheels on

[url] https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/30625376@N06/18354248906/sizes/o/ [/url]

I often wonder if the difference that people are feeling between the wheel sizes isn't simply down to the wheels and tyres themselves rather than frames and geometry.

I use a bit more tension when spoking my big wheels to avoid that deadish feel that some wheels have. (Assume I'm using a decent rim.)

Any 29er tyre is going to weigh more than its 26" equivalent. I have never tried to calculate the difference in effort in getting it up to speed - not forgetting the 29er doesn't have to rotate so fast.

After riding fatbikes, all this is academic anyway. Any smaller/lighter wheel bike feels zingy. 🙂

BB's raised for a start- last night I had a tinker- dropped pressures right down. It felt alot better 😀

I've also had to drop the sag on the fork more than I ran on the 26'er.

Tempted to run the 26'er in the rear tonight but I know it'll make quite a slack seat angle just too slack - it'd be good for a Alps holiday though.

I had a 26" suss, 29 hardtail, now have a 650 suss and still the 29 hardtail

Find the longer wheelbase the hardest adjustment currently, constantly running wide in berms/corners definitely not sluggish though.

Pretty much every strava pb is toppling and the bike is 2 months old.

Think you can just over analyze things.

I had a tinker .... It felt alot better

Go on with ye! Get the settings right before deciding the wheels are the wrong size!

😀

I don't understand why you would want to run 26" wheels in a bike designed for 650b. It makes no sense.

I can't see it making it much slacker or lower anyway to be honest. By the time you have your sag dialled in the difference must be negated surely?

For what it worth I didn't get on with my 650b trance. It just didn't feel right to me whereas loads of people love them.

FWIW I never got on with the 26" oranges, not really the wheels being the problem though 😉

Did you lower the handlebar after putting the new wheels in?

If not, go and do it before you do any more whinging.

I've only ridden a couple of 650b's so not a world of experience, but in a blindfold test I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the wheel size.

Some people seem more sensitive to small changes in their bike than others.

Did you lower the handlebar

Stem seems to be slammed in the picture of it with 26" wheels...

🙁

only option is a droopy/neg rise stem then....

though the travesty of a non remote dropper should really be fixed first

Flat bar (if that's a riser).

Bar height makes a massive difference IME.

I've got a 650b and bloody love it. There, I said it.

If you prefer it with the 26 inch wheels then ride it like that!

As you've found out though you've dropped the BB and may get pedal strikes but you'll learn to ride around that.

The wheel size shouldn't make any difference to angles and slackness, the static angles stay the same even if you put BMX wheels on it, you only get a slacker feeling by running more sag at the rear or by putting one of the bigger wheels on the front.
It sounds like you're enjoying the feeling of being sat 'in' a long low bike and have lost that by putting the 650b wheels on it.
I'm pretty sure Brant chipped in on a thread a few years ago when 650b was just coming through and somebody asked him about running 26 inch wheels in the 45650b, he didn't see a problem other than what you've already mentioned re. the BB being very low....I'm sure most designers of most AM/enduro type bikes have experimented with really low BBs for the 'railing the corners' feeling you describe and incredible stability but in practical terms to put a bike on the market like that knowing people are going to be smashing pedals and hitting stuff on technical climbs etc just isn't appropriate.

I disliked my 650b HT for similar reasons and have gone back to 26 inch wheels there but still run a 650b full-suss and like how that feels....I suspect you wouldn't have minded if you hadn't tried the smaller wheels first!

You could always run the bike with more sag at the rear and an angleset on the front to further push the forks out and get the bike sitting lower on the bigger wheels?....that's what I'd do, I wouldn't sell that frame as it's just too good looking!....easily the best looking full-suss out there right now and I know that shouldn't matter but in the case of the Commencal most reviews praise the ride too so you've got the complete package of looks and performance!

[img] [/img]
Back in 05 there was one of these on show at a bike demo in the lakes, Tracy Moseley was explaining that Fabian Barrel was experimenting with the floating brake jack arm, in some positions it could be used to jack the suspension and drop the bike low into corners.

What about keeping the 650b rear wheel in and fitting the old 26" front wheel for a best of both worlds experience?

Yes it rolls quicker down trails but Im losing that.... Zing?

I'm not overly impressed with 29 tbh. Wheels weigh a sodding ton (1800g) and what with that weight being further out, feels even heavier. Haven't noticed it being faster rolling either. Hard work riding fast on tight trails with all the acceleration. If I find some money down the back of the sofa I may experiment with b+ but that is unlikely to result in any additional zing.

Makes my old Patriot feel brilliant on the techie bits by comparison. I hope someone keeps making 26er bikes because I still really like that wheel size.

£20 for some offset bushes, lovely job.

Remote dropper sorted, no more mid-descent fumble crotch-grabbing 😀

Bar height makes a massive difference IME

Does anyone other than Niner make a proper, negative rise bar?

A mate of mine, searching for more reach on his Moulton, fitted an old style 24" riser bar upside down. It added reach because the sweep went the wrong way. It was shocking to ride.

I've given him some drops from my spares bin 😯

Back in 05 there was one of these on show at a bike demo in the lakes, Tracy Moseley was explaining that Fabian Barrel was experimenting with the floating brake jack arm, in some positions it could be used to jack the suspension and drop the bike low into corners.

I had one of those (lower end version). Tried the brake in the lower setting a few times in the alps, it pushed the bike into its travel on dragging the back brake, phenomenal going into berms, terrifying when you forgot and tried to use the brake to actually slow down.

I'm just not getting it. Last night I was oversteering(?) on any turns so maybe I have to start leaning in turning before I usually do?

I'm going to fit a 26'er rear tonight and give it a spin round a local trail- partly out of curiosity 😀

Then after the weekend if I'm still in the same frame of mind I'll refit the 26'er wheelset and put on slightly larger diameter tyres as a sort of offering/compromise to the 'bike 🙂

Does anyone other than Niner make a proper, negative rise bar?

Syntace do one

Surely a 26" wheel with big tyre is near enough the same as a 650b wheel with normal tyre ?

I think you are overthinking this hora. Just ride the bloody thing.

I'll buy your frame if you want rid of it...

A 26" wheel with a huge tyre is the same size as a 27.5" wheel with a tiny tyre. Make it big enough and you can call it 26+

Perhaps you are struggling with the slacker head angle compared to your previous bikes.

The internet says 25mm difference. Back to back though (Maxxis& Maxxis) the difference looks way bigger.

Renton the angles shouldnt change that much

Iridebikes commencal have great prices. Im sure you'd like one. It'd be a whole lot better than a shonky on one full sus too

Have a minority of people convinced themselves that they're so in tune with their bike that these things really impact on the weekend's 20 miles rides?

Scunny why start a topic 'will I die' around a 650b/26'er fork/wheel combo like you did?

Hysteria from someone with obviously little bike-feel? Pwned 😉

The internet says 25mm difference. Back to back though (Maxxis& Maxxis) the difference looks way bigger.

Glad I wasn't the only one!

I went from a 456-Evo 26er to a 45650b 27.5er and with both bikes on High Rollers the 650b wheels looked massive compared to the old bike.

The whole 'just sling big tyres on your 26er' for the 650b experience doesn't do the difference justice IMO.